Next Wednesday my partner and I will be aboard Silversea's Silver Spirit in the Caribbean, and with only ca 375 passengers, it won't be such a cattleboat.

Mar 10, 2012 -- 5:20PM, Newtonian wrote:

Mar 10, 2012 -- 5:07PM, mecdukebec wrote:

Did anybody fish from the Ark and if so, did they eat fish on Fridays, in Arksville?

Mec - you missed OP!  All animal life, including the Noah and his wife and 3 sons and their 3 wives - were vegetarian.

And God went on to say: “Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food. ³⁰ And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it came to be so. - Genesis 1:29,30

Thus the manures used for gardening were vegetarian - which don't smell that bad, btw - like horse and cow manure many organic gardeners use today.    Of course, no manures near these specific gardening areas - that would be for gardening near the center of the length of the ark, and buried under the soil of course.

Of course, God could have allowed fishing towards the end of the voyage - since He was about to allow the eating of meat upon departure from the ark - but that is unknown speculation!

That version la vie en bois sounds rather like a version of San Francisco:  Vegans, hugging trees, begging for French Canadian syrup. 

Mar 16, 2012 -- 12:47PM, Newtonian wrote:

Mar 11, 2012 -- 6:27AM, AnnOMaly wrote:

Yeah Newt, those plants would just thrive in ark conditions - salt-contaminated waves and sea-spray, tiny windows and heavy, leaden skies over a 6 week period - exactly what food-producing, flower-bearing plants love!

What makes you think the fresh water that fell sank below the heavier salt water which had to travel from oceans to where Noah was located?   Also, the windows were just under the roof, which likley overhung a few inches - and from which fresh water flowed off the roof - any spray would prmarily be from the waters cascading off the roof.

Granted that for 40 days there would be low-light, but for the rest of the year there was plenty of light.   Seedllings and germinating seeds simply grow slower under low light.    I am sure they brought into the ark enough freshly harvested food to last them 40 days!

I am equally sure they brought in seedlings and seeds.   Seeds can be started in very low light, btw - away from windows.

According to you, the whole earth was covered with water. If there were already oceans, then the salt would have contaminated (albeit in more diluted form) the whole earth. And it wouldn't be a millpond either, where lighter elements are gently floating above the heavier ones. It was a heavy rainstorm, right? Lots of waves, heavy droplets churning up the floodwaters, mixing it all up, brackish water-spray soaking those poor little seedlings.

Anyway, all this mini-ark-horticultural-paradise stuff is mere speculative meandering, isn't it Newt? 

Mar 16, 2012 -- 4:16PM, AnnOMaly wrote:

Mar 16, 2012 -- 12:47PM, Newtonian wrote:

Mar 11, 2012 -- 6:27AM, AnnOMaly wrote:

Yeah Newt, those plants would just thrive in ark conditions - salt-contaminated waves and sea-spray, tiny windows and heavy, leaden skies over a 6 week period - exactly what food-producing, flower-bearing plants love!

What makes you think the fresh water that fell sank below the heavier salt water which had to travel from oceans to where Noah was located?   Also, the windows were just under the roof, which likley overhung a few inches - and from which fresh water flowed off the roof - any spray would prmarily be from the waters cascading off the roof.

Granted that for 40 days there would be low-light, but for the rest of the year there was plenty of light.   Seedllings and germinating seeds simply grow slower under low light.    I am sure they brought into the ark enough freshly harvested food to last them 40 days!

I am equally sure they brought in seedlings and seeds.   Seeds can be started in very low light, btw - away from windows.

According to you, the whole earth was covered with water. If there were already oceans, then the salt would have contaminated (albeit in more diluted form) the whole earth. And it wouldn't be a millpond either, where lighter elements are gently floating above the heavier ones. It was a heavy rainstorm, right? Lots of waves, heavy droplets churning up the floodwaters, mixing it all up, brackish water-spray soaking those poor little seedlings.

Anyway, all this mini-ark-horticultural-paradise stuff is mere speculative meandering, isn't it Newt? 

Ann - see OP - I invited you all to use your imagination - just to try to keep within the bounds of what the Biblical account says but realizing much is not said in the Biblical account.   In other words, have fun imagining what life was like that year (not just the 40 days, btw) on Noah's ark.

Of course, the Bible does not say whether Noah continued his organic gardening on the ark - being an organic gardener myself, I simply am posting what I would have done if I was Noah.

We need to survive Armageddon and ask Noah these questions when he is resurrected.

Meanwhile I was simply inviting you all to have fun - let your imaginations run wild - enjoy!

On your objection - Noah was intelligent, he would have made sure his little seedlings were safe.   And, as I said, those windows were just below the roof where fresh water would have cascaded down - Noah could have used any of a number of methods to channel fresh water run-off from the roof to his plants while protecting them from various dangers.

A good organic gardener tends plants the same way a good shepherd protects and nurtures the sheep.

I might add that Noah may have used netting to keep animals from flying out those windows during the most violent part of the catastrophe - but allowing them to fly or climb outside later  - e.g. to the roof, during the year that followed the 40 days of accretion of water.

If there really was dangerous (to plants) brackish sea spray that high above the waters which were likely fresh, not salt, this netting could have captured  that sea spray and channeled in down the outside walls of the ark.

However, assuming 4,000 feet of water accreted during those 40 days, that would be 100 feet per day, or roughly 48 inches per hour.   So, the ocean below should have been primarily of composition approximating those 2 feet of accreted water per hour - and that may well have been even better for plants than distilled water!

You all - Just more detail I thought of  - if you like reading - note I have been having fun doing this!

Ed 2 - for you I have highlighted reference to insects, in view of your last question.  Remember all animals were vegetarian - no predation on the ark!

Ok, in this post I wll post concerning vines.    In our home on Long Island, New York we let vines grow along parts of our outside wall - especially trumpet vines (flowering) and English Ivy.   They eventually produced a small amount of rot - but certainly not in 1 year!

Would Noah have planted some vines in those window boxes and let them train to outside the windows?   I suspect he would have allowed this once the rains abated enough - This would allow the population of various insects to increase after those first 40 days.   From experience, I know insects love vines growing along walls.   Ordinary wooden walls tend to be quite sterile - but where vines grow up wall, insects truly abound.  

I am sure Noah would not have just planted Ivy and trumpet vines - surely there was a grape vine or two (or three....)!   

Would Noah have let some grape vines grow to outside the windows, and haul them in when full of grapes?   I suspect so - and the few that dropped in the water - I'm sure birds would have loved that!

When ducks and geese had offspring, did they stay inside the ark - I doubt it!   I imagine the ark floating along with geese following with there goslings as Noah fed them throwing food out the windows!   Of course, I am talking about after the initial 40 days.

Of course, some types of aquatic plants likely survived the flood.   But others may have been brought in temporarily for the more violent 40 days - in a pool.    Then, when the violence subsided, I suspect he put those plants outside in the water - perhaps tying them to the ark with living vines.    The ark was not moving fast - it was like a box - no pointed front and back - so aquatic vines could have been attached to the ark via vines tangled in the tsohar and extending down to the water outside.

Some living vines are very strong and could have anchored other attached aquatic plants in the water outside.   Of course, some would detach and float away, and likely some insects and aquatic birds enjoyed flying short distances to these aquatic plants that  had floated away during the ensuing year.

_____________________________________(see my earlier post on the bedrooms)

OK, we have one bedroom 20' by 40' with one wall with windows and fragrant flowers and the other walls having _________________ (no windows so as to allow privacy), and one door to the 40 ' by 30' living room and one door to one 22.5 foot by 30 foot gardening area I just described, another door to an interior hallway, which hallway had a door to an interior compost outhouse type toilet with a hand wash sink basin and the bedroom also had  another door to an interior washroom which had a second door to the hallway.

Now for the corner 30 foot by 37.5 foot corner gardening area which the living room also had windows for viewing.    This corner gardening area has a drop down (hence the floor below had a dropped ceiling accordingly) section with steps that lowered to a large landscape box with 2 feet of soil and a transplanted 20' high fig tree - gradually pruned as the days passed so that most remaining branches extended to the windows - and as the year progressed, to outside the windows.   There would also be low-growing partial shade tolerant flowers and veggies (like spinach and leaf lettuce) along the 30 foot and the 37.5 foot long window boxes which would drain the rain (flood) waters off to the lower tree bed which also had shade loving plants in the large landscape box along the base of the tree.    In the actual corner window box area it would be 2.5 feet square, with plants which require allot of sunlight.   That would be the case in all 4 corners of the ark, btw.

A same dimension corner gardening area would also be in the other corner of this end of the ark - with another 20' tree and similar planting except this area would allow animal life from the lower floor to fly or climb into it.   Only honeybees and perhaps a few other pollinating insects would be allowed in the previously described gardening areas.   But in this corner there would be monkeys and all sorts of tree dwelling animals and birds.   Unlike the other corner area, this would be a jungle environment with all sorts of understory plants that tolerate dense shade.   Of course, the 2.5' square window box would contain strictly sun-loving plants - and the other window boxes would contain plants requiring some sun - but deeper inside this corner gardening area would be plants that require minimal light but plenty of moisture - of course, including fragrant orchids and other beautiful jungle plants.    As with the other gardening areas, near the windows to the living room there would be lanterns with fragrant oils that would add light to the interior of these gardening areas.

How would Noah have restricted birds, etc. and only allowed honeybees etc?   I suspect netting.   In fact I suspect they used netting along all the windows for the violent 40 days so as to restrict the insects and birds from flying outside during that dangerous violent period.  Of course, once the weather settled down, he likely removed that netting and let the birds, insects, squirels, monkeys etc. go out the windows and out onto the roof - pershaps even lowering vines and rope ladders into the water and even perhaps lowering rafts into the water to allow otters and other water loving animals to go in and out.

Larger netting would restrict jungle animals in the jungle corner, which jungle area could extend along the side of the ark for 50 or 100 feet or so.   Thus birds and butterflies could go where the monkeys and cats, and other tree dwelling animals could not go.

I suspect the corner jungle area would have an opening in the floor so monkeys and other jungle tree dwellers could go up and down to their second story cages where they would sleep and be fed.

On the second story, btw, there would be a spacious recreation area in the central portion of the ark - 15 feet high, 75 feet wide and 200 feet long - accessible by stairway down from all 4 bedrooms of the ark as the ends would be 125 feet from each end of the ark.   There would be deep shade plants under the suspended lanterns that lit this area only when in use - only one lantern would be lit constantly.

The walls would contain cages for animals and an elevated walkway along the 200 foot long sides to allow access to the upper cages.   The upper cages would be only for animals that could jump safely down 5 or 10 feet or fly, etc. - i.e. assuming 3 tiers of 5' high cages along the walls.

Of course, a 15' high recreation area would not allow sports like softball - that would require opening up the central portion of the ceiling all the way to the roof.  However, 15' high would allow for sports like tennis, basketball, bowling, ping pong, putt putt golf, horseshoes, volleyball - any sport where a maximum of 8 people could play.   And I suspect they would have this scheduled, so the animals would be allow to have fun in this area at other times - then Noah's family would have to clean up and then play ball!

Christmas trees - er, i.e. cut trees that would only survive a month or three in potted nutrient water - much as Christmas trees are brought inside now.   This would add fragrance and could be lined up on the insides of the walkways along the rows of cages in the recreation area.   They would eventually die back, and be used for firewood to cook with - however, the pine cones or fruits would likely have viable seeds or simply serve as food for the animals.

Does anyone feel sorry for that cat on the log outside the ark?   I know I would have been tempted to throw out a rope ladder and call - here kitty kitty!

_____________________________________________

How many animals?   Earlier I estimated 1,000 animals from field mouse to housecat size, and 100 animals larger than a housecat. I will not here be concerned with how many animals smaller than a field mouse because many of them will be in the gardening areas, the composting areas and vegetation storage areas.   The latter would include those 'Christmas' trees and other cut trees brought in which would naturally have a few insects per tree, and also hay bales used for walls and plant stalks (e.g. sugar cane stalks) used for floor/ceilings for cages.

Soil burrowing animals (e.g. moles, some snakes; ants; other insects) would be in those 4 large tree beds in the four corners of the ark, along with an undetermined number of tree beds along the sides of the ark.

Termites and carpenter ants would be in a composting bin along with other wood nesting or eating insects.   This area would be surrounded by composting areas - no termites or wood boring insects would be allowed beyond this area - and the compost from the termite area would be used exclusively in isolated mushroom farms in the same area so as to not allow transport to structural ark lumber.

So, in considering those 1100 animals,, that would be in addition to the animals referred to above - And we will have to specify which are 2 each (unclean - cats, dogs, etc.) and clean (pigs, sheep, goats, cows, etc.).  For the 1,000 we will assume 110 clean animal kinds for 770 animals, and 115 unclean animals for 230 animals, hence a total of 1,000 animals.   For the 100 large animals, we will raise our estimate to 400 animals - 50 clean animals for 350 animals, and 50 unclean for 100 animals - for a total of 450 animals, however most of these will be dog to goat size - relatively few very large animals like Buffalo, Cow, Giraffe, Hippo, Elk, Bison, Camel, horse, etc.

The very large animals will be exclusively in the bottom story of the ark, which will have a large grazing area located 6" to 5' 6" (sloped and starting 6" above the actual floor)  grazing area 300 ' long.  Actaully, there would be two 3" high steps and the 6" area will initially be flat for about 30' - the slope will be 5' up and 300' long (60" up per 3,600" long, or 1" up for 60" (= 5,) - very gentle slope.   The total area of this bottom floor grazing area will be 350' long by 50' wide with wall/cages stacked up along the sides.   There will be two 75' square areas for giraffes and other very tall animals at either end of the bottom floor.   These very large animals will not be caged - they will roam free in this gently sloped area, some of which will be covered with hay or some other plant matter for them to sleep on.

Initially much of this area will be covered by short and tall grass sod brought in from outside just before the animals - as these grasses will not have enough light to survive more than a month - the animals will feast on this for the first month - after which only very limited shade tolerant grass will be available grown initially in a top floor gardening area - and they will primarily be eating dried grains and hay, etc. after the first month.

The area below the ramp will include a large free area from 6" to 1' high under these ramps for small animals to frolic and play, and a large area under the central portion of these ramps for somewhat larger animals to frolic and play.   However, there will be 15' deep cages along the sides below the ramps, and 5' deep cages stacked on top of the ramps on the sides, thus limiting the grazing area to actually 40' wide.

Along one wall there will be stacked (3 high) 5' deep, 20' long, 5' high cages for 360 ', extending 5' beyond the ramp ends on either end - that will be 18 cages long by 3 cages high, or 48 cages for about 96 unclean animals (48 kinds) animals.   The bottom row will be let loose for grazing more often.   There will be portable ramps/scaffold,ladder for access to the upper cages.  

Btw - the giant sloths will be on a large tree planted on the second floor and rising into the third floor - along with other tree dwelling animals.   Most of the branches of this tree will ultimately die, but some branches will extend to the tsofar windows and grow out of those windows that year so the tree itself and many upper branches will remain alive, and eventually the tree dwellers will climb to the outside vines and onto the roof of the ark, as they wish to.

the cages under the 50' wide grazing area ramps will be 20' deep but only 1' wide for the 1' high cages (6" wide for the 6" high cages, 5' wide for the 5' high cages.   The average width will be about 3' for the 350' length - or 117 cages for about 700 animals. About 200 kinds.  While the clean animals will be one kind per cage (hence 7 animals) the unclean will mostly contain 3 kinds of compatible animals per cage (hence 6 animals per cage) - in view of how deep these cages will be.   Note that is just under the ramps on one side - and remember the roam free area  under the ramps.    These animals will be mostly fed inside the cages - a little food and water will be left at the edge of the 3" high roam free area for smaller animals that do not want to go back to their cages - they will either be caught and returned to their cages or allowed to propagate on their own in this roam free area.

NOTE: No animal, like squirrels, that would chew into the floor of the ark will be allowed in this under ramp roam free area - for obvious reasons.   And the ramps will not be nailed and the sections can easily be lifted once per month for inspection - the first inspection will be upon the removal of most of the green sod which will then have died or been eaten.   Any spiders and insects making a home on the under sides of these ramp sections will be cared for carefully so as not to accidentally crush them.  Some will simply drop to the floor and scamper off - others will stay put guarding their egg cases - some may carry their egg cases with them.

The old sod will be used in the window boxes as the smaller seedling plants will be needing more soil as their roots grow - of course, the soil will be shaken off and used in the window boxes and the remaining sod will be composted in an area that animals can initially eat from if they wish to.   There will always be a small area, perhaps 4' by 8' -which will have green sod grown in the window boxes successively  from the best plugs from the formerly dying sod and then transplanted to this area.

Needless to say there will also be storage areas for tar and pitch and other repair materials.   There will also be a lowest trough area on either end of the bottom floor so drainage and leaks can be collected for watering or drunk by the animals.  These areas will be metal forged basin type extending between two floor joists near the center in removable sections

The primary water source for watering the plants and giving the animals water to drink will depend on how many leaks develop during the year.    But there will likely be a decreasing percentage from roof drainage and an increasing percentage from minor leaks.   There will be no major leaks, God will have helped Noah do a good ship building job along with good leak repairing.   Needless to say - inspection and leak repairing will be a very important job on the ark.   And they will know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

There will be two water towers near either end of the ark, perhaps starting 5' inside the tsohar window boxes and collecting drainwater from the roof.   There will then be pipes that extend down to sinks on all floors, and a shower elevated about 1' from the bottom floor (for greater water pressure).  

A small cooking area will be on the bottom floor, but most cooking will be in the large second floor kitchen.   The bottom floor cooking area will be mostly for boiling drinking water for man and animals.  

Note - there will always be a few lanterns lit - so no matches will be needed.  Also, the cooking area will also provide some auxiliary light for that bottom floor area - if the need is great for boiled drinking water, then this stove will always be lit.

Note: the heaviest materials for storage, like lumber and liquids including fragrant oils for the lanterns, will be stored in such a way as to add stability to the ark.   Also most lumber will be light wood - only structural wood will be heavier - and curtains and netting will also be used rather than heavy lumber for separating sections.   Second floor cages will use hay for walls, and stalks for ceiling/floors - these will obviously be opened up as eaten or used.   By then the animals will be getting used to one another and will no longer need to be separated.

Note: There will be timber on the bottom floor to add stability to the ark walls and ceiling/floors - these will be used by various animals for climbing and having fun.  Lighter lumber will be used on the second floor for the same purpose.  The top floor will use mostly curtains and netting - except in the 4 bedrooms and other rooms - however, some very lightweight structural lumber will be used on the top floor to add stability to the ark.

Of course, care will be taken to make sure one side of the ark will not be heavier than the other side.   This is why the heaviest animals will be on the bottom floor near the center.

Obviously, animals like elephants need to be distributed more carefully than lighter animals.

to be continued

Enjoy!   Let your imaginations run wild!