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Switch to Forum Live View Is lying considered a sin?
3 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 3:30PM #21
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Mar 9, 2012 -- 9:13PM, Aussiesoul wrote:

Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:14PM, mainecaptain wrote:

I have not been able to get a proper answer, and am sinerely interested. Is it or isn't it?
If not can it be explained. Thanks in advance.



Generally I would say it is wrong however life is not always black or white and their are some circumstances when telling the truth might actually cause unneccessary harm or hurt to someone else.




thank you. Yes generally I too consider lying wrong. But as you say it depends. I would tell a lie to protect someone from harm.


My question was prompted by how so many politicians and others in the spot light, lie through their teeth, often about things easily check and yes they still hope to dupe people into believing them and possibly harming themselves or others by believing the lie.


A lot of those people (the liars)  consider themselves good Christians, and are defended by ordinary,  basically good folks. I find it a sad state of affairs in cases such as that.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 4:49PM #22
koolpoi
Posts: 6,468

Mar 10, 2012 -- 7:55AM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 2:46AM, koolpoi wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:38PM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:34PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Just trying to figure out how people think. How people can condemn one thing and not the other when the two things are  almost the same, but coming from different sides.


I am sure it is cognitive dissonance.




I don't know if you are referring to something specific, but I happen to agree--God will always honor truth-telling.  There are zero commands, laws, or precepts against the truth--no matter what.




Are there commands against assisting evil (which telling the truth can sometimes do)?




"Repay no one evil for evil"


"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."




Just to be clear,you would answer the SS truthfully about where the hidden Jews were?You would not lie to save them?

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 11, 2012 - 11:37PM #23
human1
Posts: 9,058

I would lie to the SS. 


Lying to God is always considered wrong.  Lying to sinful men set on destroying lives you can preserve is the right thing to do.


Reknowned theologians differ on this matter. 


I feel we are to do what best reflects what the righteousness of God is...  He has said murder is wrong.  If you can prevent humans from being murdered, I believe that's the best reflection of God's righteousness.  I would be comfortable in lying to man in order to save lives.


But circumstances like this are very rare in life, and this is never to say the Christian becomes lax about lying or begins thinking it's not a big issue. 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2012 - 12:16AM #24
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Mar 10, 2012 -- 4:49PM, koolpoi wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 7:55AM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 2:46AM, koolpoi wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:38PM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:34PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Just trying to figure out how people think. How people can condemn one thing and not the other when the two things are  almost the same, but coming from different sides.


I am sure it is cognitive dissonance.




I don't know if you are referring to something specific, but I happen to agree--God will always honor truth-telling.  There are zero commands, laws, or precepts against the truth--no matter what.




Are there commands against assisting evil (which telling the truth can sometimes do)?




"Repay no one evil for evil"


"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."




Just to be clear,you would answer the SS truthfully about where the hidden Jews were?You would not lie to save them?




This is what I'd do:


“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.


As the Holy Spirit is referred to as "The Spirit of Truth", I don't expect He'd teach me to lie. Instead, I would expect something I couldn't possibly expect--something magnificent; indeed something God-sized.


Happens all the time in prayer.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2012 - 2:17AM #25
subtleguy01
Posts: 2,593

Mar 12, 2012 -- 12:16AM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 4:49PM, koolpoi wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 7:55AM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 2:46AM, koolpoi wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:38PM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:34PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Just trying to figure out how people think. How people can condemn one thing and not the other when the two things are  almost the same, but coming from different sides.


I am sure it is cognitive dissonance.




I don't know if you are referring to something specific, but I happen to agree--God will always honor truth-telling.  There are zero commands, laws, or precepts against the truth--no matter what.




Are there commands against assisting evil (which telling the truth can sometimes do)?




"Repay no one evil for evil"


"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."




Just to be clear,you would answer the SS truthfully about where the hidden Jews were?You would not lie to save them?




This is what I'd do:


“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.


As the Holy Spirit is referred to as "The Spirit of Truth", I don't expect He'd teach me to lie. Instead, I would expect something I couldn't possibly expect--something magnificent; indeed something God-sized.


Happens all the time in prayer.



Indeed it does, Adelphe.


People, both Christian and non-Christian, lie all the time. I'd also lie to save the endangered Jews from the SS without losing a moments sleep. I'd lie to Nikita Kruschev and Chairman Mao, telling them its raining while I'm pissing on their leg.


Seems to me, there's story in the OT about a lady in a city under siege who lied to save a few men intent on doing the will of God. If I'm not mistaken, she is also found in the geneology of Jesus.....


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2012 - 2:35AM #26
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 12, 2012 -- 12:16AM, Adelphe wrote:


This is what I'd do:


“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.


As the Holy Spirit is referred to as "The Spirit of Truth", I don't expect He'd teach me to lie. Instead, I would expect something I couldn't possibly expect--something magnificent; indeed something God-sized.


Happens all the time in prayer.



Looks like you're comparing apples to oranges to me. Being brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities as individuals isn't the same thing as lying to the SS to save others.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2012 - 2:39AM #27
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 12, 2012 -- 2:17AM, subtleguy01 wrote:


Indeed it does, Adelphe.


People, both Christian and non-Christian, lie all the time. I'd also lie to save the endangered Jews from the SS without losing a moments sleep. I'd lie to Nikita Kruschev and Chairman Mao, telling them its raining while I'm pissing on their leg.


Seems to me, there's story in the OT about a lady in a city under siege who lied to save a few men intent on doing the will of God. If I'm not mistaken, she is also found in the geneology of Jesus.....




Her name is Rahab and I mentioned her in post #20 on the previous page. :-)

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2012 - 7:20AM #28
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Mar 12, 2012 -- 2:17AM, subtleguy01 wrote:


Indeed it does, Adelphe.


People, both Christian and non-Christian, lie all the time. I'd also lie to save the endangered Jews from the SS without losing a moments sleep. I'd lie to Nikita Kruschev and Chairman Mao, telling them its raining while I'm pissing on their leg.



Well aren't you quite the macho man!  How...impressive?




Seems to me, there's story in the OT about a lady in a city under siege who lied to save a few men intent on doing the will of God. If I'm not mistaken, she is also found in the geneology of Jesus.....



Indeed there is.  In fact, you'll (perhaps) recall every last one of those found in the genealogy of Jesus are...sinners.


Here is what Rahab the Canaanite is praised for:


"Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below."



Can you say as much, er, He-Man?




Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2012 - 7:30AM #29
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Mar 12, 2012 -- 2:35AM, Ed2 wrote:


Looks like you're comparing apples to oranges to me. Being brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities as individuals isn't the same thing as lying to the SS to save others.




God's guidance certainly is not just available to those brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities "as individuals."


‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.

Mar 12, 2012 -- 2:39AM, Ed2 wrote:


Her name is Rahab and I mentioned her in post #20 on the previous page. :-)




Yes, and we've got Moses the murderer and David the slaughtering adulterer. 


Do they function as the model for your behavior, too?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2012 - 8:55AM #30
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 12, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Adelphe wrote:


Mar 12, 2012 -- 2:35AM, Ed2 wrote:


Looks like you're comparing apples to oranges to me. Being brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities as individuals isn't the same thing as lying to the SS to save others.




God's guidance certainly is not just available to those brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities "as individuals."


‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.



So are you saying that Rahab should have told the truth to the king of Jericho and his messengers about the Israelite spies?


Mar 12, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Adelphe wrote:



Mar 12, 2012 -- 2:39AM, Ed2 wrote:


Her name is Rahab and I mentioned her in post #20 on the previous page. :-)




Yes, and we've got Moses the murderer and David the slaughtering adulterer. 


Do they function as the model for your behavior, too?




Well, from what the Bible is saying, her dishonest behavior demonstrated her faith in Yahweh and served to protect the Israelite spies from harm as well as herself and her family. Also, Joshua 2:24 and Joshua 3:7 shows that Yahweh was going along with everything that was happening.


Additionally, even James 2:25 clearly states that Rahab was considered righteous for "what she did"(NIV, GWT, NLV)....which included outmaneuvering the king of Jericho's gaurds by means of deception.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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