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Switch to Forum Live View Three myths to give up...
2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 12:45PM #1
danman916
Posts: 2,594
Good advice for the usual suspects here.  =-)

As John Allen says, "If you don't get that, then you don't really get the church."
Gee, and I've been saying that for years round here...

ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/...
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 12:58PM #2
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744

Mar 6, 2012 -- 12:45PM, danman916 wrote:

Good advice for the usual suspects here.  =-)

As John Allen says, "If you don't get that, then you don't really get the church."
Gee, and I've been saying that for years round here...

ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/...



OK, let's start at the beginning.


Allen writes, ""Purple ecclesiology" refers to the notion that the lead actors in the Catholic drama are the clergy, and in fact, the only activity that really counts as "Catholic" at all is that carried out by the church's clerical caste, especially its bishops. "


OK, if the clergy aren't the lead actors, why not get rid of the lousy ones? The ones with chicks (or dudes) on the side, the pedophiles, the ones who steal from church funds -- let's start with those and get rid of them!


Oh, what's that you say? There's no way for us to get rid of them? That kind of thing is up to Bishops and other members of the hierarchy? But it's a "myth" that the clergy are the lead actors? 


Get real, John Allen!!!

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 3:28PM #3
mokantx
Posts: 3,818

Mar 6, 2012 -- 12:45PM, danman916 wrote:

Good advice for the usual suspects here.  =-)

As John Allen says, "If you don't get that, then you don't really get the church."
Gee, and I've been saying that for years round here...

ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/...



Dan


I've commented on this article on another thread, so all I'll say here is this.  As is typical for articles by just about any author, it contains some truth.  But it also doesn't tell the full story.  The "purple ecclesiology" to which he speaks was one that under the documents of Vatican II, WAS supposed to diminish as the role of the laity rose.  Alas, as we've seen, that hasn't quite happened, has it?  The issue of accountability, the refusal of dialog on hot button issues, all speaks to a purple ecclesiology that for all of what John Allen may say or even believe, still holds pretty much all the reigns in the church.  So although the guys who have the power and seem perplexed as to why those in their organization, or society in general, would want to hold them accountable for their actions and inactions, the fact remains that they are and will continue to be that huge focus of what it means to be Catholic.  It's a perspective kind of thing:  a simple call to those who lead, that they should be held to the same standards that both society, AND the church's leadership, holds us.  Until that happens, it's pretty hard to ignore their disproportionate importance in the church, their almost absolute power in the church, and the resultant absolute LACK of voice by 99+% of the total church.


mo

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 3:53PM #4
woodmanx
Posts: 466

At least one new Cardinal didn't get the memo. . . .


 


From the  New York Times (3/3/12): 


Though he called his flock to action, Cardinal Dolan reaffirmed the primacy of the church’s leadership.


Obama officials have pointed to recent polls showing that most Catholics favor the new contraceptive rule, and in a recent blog post, the cardinal wrote that officials in the Obama administration had recommended that bishops “listen to the ‘enlightened’ voices of accommodation” within the church. At a news conference after Saturday’s speech, Cardinal Dolan said, “We kind of got our Irish up when leaders in government seemed to be assigning an authoritative voice to Catholic groups that are not the bishops.”


He added: “If you want an authoritative voice, go to the bishops. They’re the ones that speak for the truths of the faith.”

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 6:28PM #5
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Mar 6, 2012 -- 3:53PM, woodmanx wrote:


At least one new Cardinal didn't get the memo. . . .


 


From the  New York Times (3/3/12): 


Though he called his flock to action, Cardinal Dolan reaffirmed the primacy of the church’s leadership.


Obama officials have pointed to recent polls showing that most Catholics favor the new contraceptive rule, and in a recent blog post, the cardinal wrote that officials in the Obama administration had recommended that bishops “listen to the ‘enlightened’ voices of accommodation” within the church. At a news conference after Saturday’s speech, Cardinal Dolan said, “We kind of got our Irish up when leaders in government seemed to be assigning an authoritative voice to Catholic groups that are not the bishops.”


He added: “If you want an authoritative voice, go to the bishops. They’re the ones that speak for the truths of the faith.”




Dolan seems to think he is the voice of Catholicism in the US. He isn't. Neither is John Allen.



 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 6:59PM #6
mokantx
Posts: 3,818

Mar 6, 2012 -- 12:45PM, danman916 wrote:

Good advice for the usual suspects here.  =-)

As John Allen says, "If you don't get that, then you don't really get the church."
Gee, and I've been saying that for years round here...

ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/...



Dan


I went back and reread Allen's article, and as I noted earlier, I think it offers a mix of good stuff, but with gaping holes on matters that likely should be discussed WITH the points he wants to make, if one is to see a full picture.


Yes, the clergy represents only .04% of Catholics.  As such, the laity HAS to have taken a bigger role.  That's practicality, pure and simple.  I agree that the laity has done wonderful things, in just about every corner of the earth.  Again, no disagreement there.


Yet, if he's going to point to statistics to bolster his position, I think he needs to ALSO point out that the church is changing, and changing quite rapidly.  For example, one of the reasons the clergy is such a small percent, is that the source for new vocations has all but dried up within my lifetime.  Sure, one can point to a few seminaries, but this problem has been around now for decades, and done so much damage that the church HAS to make changes.  I've seen parishes closed NOT because they were not financially self sufficient, but because there just were not enough priests to go around.  Of late, the trend in at least some dioceses seems to be to "share" a priest among multiple parishes.  That strikes me as more a stopgap, than a return to the nature of parish life that my parents and theirs experienced.  The point is that there is no turning back: these changes run deep, and have profound impact.  And for all of the good things the laity is doing, remember, that in MUCH of that work, the bishops hold what is effectively veto power.  One way to look at that, is that because of these disproportionate powers, the effectiveness of the local lay community will often be LIMITED by the limitations of that bishop.  Ask, for example, the people of St. Louis how well their efforts at ecumanism flourished under Abp. Burke while he was there, and how much fun it's been trying to rebuild in his aftermath...



I'm not against Allen.  But I think all too often, his stuff comes off a bit like propaganda, in that he will tell the side he likes, while conveniently ignoring the rest.  I don't think that diminishes the truthfulness of what he says, but it sure leaves one wondering if we have the whole story.  In this particular article, I don't think we do.



mo

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 8:16PM #7
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,124

Mar 6, 2012 -- 3:53PM, woodmanx wrote:


At least one new Cardinal didn't get the memo. . . .


 


From the  New York Times (3/3/12): 


Though he called his flock to action, Cardinal Dolan reaffirmed the primacy of the church’s leadership.


Obama officials have pointed to recent polls showing that most Catholics favor the new contraceptive rule, and in a recent blog post, the cardinal wrote that officials in the Obama administration had recommended that bishops “listen to the ‘enlightened’ voices of accommodation” within the church. At a news conference after Saturday’s speech, Cardinal Dolan said, “We kind of got our Irish up when leaders in government seemed to be assigning an authoritative voice to Catholic groups that are not the bishops.”


He added: “If you want an authoritative voice, go to the bishops. They’re the ones that speak for the truths of the faith.”




Then there's Lori, who was so furious with the Jesuits for having the nerve to suggest that meyabe the bishops don't always have all of it right, that he wrote a letter to the editors that comes off as sounding a bit like a tantrum in some ways. Unfortunately any postitive points he tries to make are overshadowed by his anger that anyone would DARE to critique anything the "purple" church does.  Allen may try to spin it that the "purples" aren't THE church, but the reality remains - they have the power and they use it to silence all of those in THE church who dare cross them.


 The bishops may be only a tiny part of the church, but as one person commented on Allen's article at NCR, they drive the bus and none of the passengers have any say at all.


John Allen seems to have lost all critical and analytic capacity. His columns come across primarily as PR spin for the powers-that-be.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 9:06PM #8
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Mar 6, 2012 -- 8:16PM, WaveringCC wrote:


Mar 6, 2012 -- 3:53PM, woodmanx wrote:


At least one new Cardinal didn't get the memo. . . .


 


From the  New York Times (3/3/12): 


Though he called his flock to action, Cardinal Dolan reaffirmed the primacy of the church’s leadership.


Obama officials have pointed to recent polls showing that most Catholics favor the new contraceptive rule, and in a recent blog post, the cardinal wrote that officials in the Obama administration had recommended that bishops “listen to the ‘enlightened’ voices of accommodation” within the church. At a news conference after Saturday’s speech, Cardinal Dolan said, “We kind of got our Irish up when leaders in government seemed to be assigning an authoritative voice to Catholic groups that are not the bishops.”


He added: “If you want an authoritative voice, go to the bishops. They’re the ones that speak for the truths of the faith.”




Then there's Lori, who was so furious with the Jesuits for having the nerve to suggest that meyabe the bishops don't always have all of it right, that he wrote a letter to the editors that comes off as sounding a bit like a tantrum in some ways. Unfortunately any postitive points he tries to make are overshadowed by his anger that anyone would DARE to critique anything the "purple" church does.  Allen may try to spin it that the "purples" aren't THE church, but the reality remains - they have the power and they use it to silence all of those in THE church who dare cross them.


 The bishops may be only a tiny part of the church, but as one person commented on Allen's article at NCR, they drive the bus and none of the passengers have any say at all.


John Allen seems to have lost all critical and analytic capacity. His columns come across primarily as PR spin for the powers-that-be.




Wav,


Amen, amen and amen.........................


John Allen has become a shill for the hierarchs. I've had it with him, Lori and Dolan. The hierarchy think they are the church.


Just for snarky's sake--let's see them finance themselves. Guess perhaps they couldd to some extent with shady banking. Something else we don't read--how much the Church has truly lost in revenue as US and European donations diminish; we won't read anything on this, either.




 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2012 - 10:44PM #9
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Dolan is cruising to make some political cartoonist rich & famous. I mean, this guy is a satirist's dream.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2012 - 12:17AM #10
happygardener
Posts: 733

Cardinal George apparently failed to get the memo too.


"...Bishops are the successors of the apostles; they collectively receive the authority to teach and govern that Christ bestowed upon the apostles. Bishops don’t claim to speak for every baptized Catholic. Bishops speak, rather, for the Catholic and apostolic faith. Those who hold that faith gather with them; others go their own way. They are and should be free to do so, but they deceive themselves and others in calling their organizations Catholic..."


www.catholicnewworld.com/cnwonline/2012/...


Does John Allen "really get" the church of Dolan and George?

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