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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 3:17PM #41
Kemmer
Posts: 16,841

Mar 9, 2012 -- 1:34PM, mrjordan wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 10:35AM, Kemmer wrote:


Isn't that what Christianity is all about?  Without the Resurrection, Jesus was merely one of the major prophets, as the Muslims instruct us.





Love those versus you injected there Newtonian.


We just said that Jehovah sent Jesus to be our savior. Through his death the elimination of sin, death itself and Satan is now in motion. He was God's first creation, his Son and the actual "heel" striking the serpent's head. However Jesus is not greater than God nor God's equal. He was and still is certainly more than just a prophet. What scriptrual support shows your above claim? What more do you want Jesus to be?




Is that a response to my post, or are you wandering off somewhere else?


What scriptrual support shows your above claim?



What "claim" is that?

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 4:23PM #42
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,240

Of course, the main point is that it is morally wrong to observe birthdays because it honors the creation



In that case, it must be morally wrong to observe wedding anniversaries because it is likewise honoring creation and giving undue attention to a human couple.


 - the reasons why Jews and Christians originally rejected birthday celebrations are, of course, more detailed than that but you have ignored the evidence.



What evidence? Give me the post number where evidence is provided. I could have missed it. (Too many posts; too little time.)


Jesus did not tell his followers to observe his birthday



And he didn't tell us NOT to.


- in fact he made it impossible since he did not tell us the date of his birth. 



Not impossible. I refer you to the Queen of England example in a previous post.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 4:40PM #43
Svetlana
Posts: 11,315

Mar 8, 2012 -- 5:40PM, mrjordan wrote:


Mar 8, 2012 -- 5:04PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


The Bible teaches that one shouldn't celebrate Christmas?




More like the bible did not tell us TO celebrate Christ birth. It said to remember him on the day of his death. It was his death that gave us our salvation.


Without the Resurrection, His death was no different from any other.  I don't understand the JW reluctance to acknowledge the Resurrection.  Where in scripture does it say to ignore or downplay it?  I really don't understand this point of view.


In this day and age everyone knows Jesus was not born on December 25th.


Everyone but Older, who thinks that it's news that He wasn't born on that day.


So why celebrate the wrong day?


Here we go with the JW twisting-to-avoid-the-issue again.  It's SO tiresome.  I'll type this very slowly so that you can no longer claim to misunderstand.  That you want to seem to misunderstand such a simple principle sends a message you may not want to send, if you see what I mean.


No one celebrates the day.  With me so far?  We celebrate the EVENT ON that day, because we don't know the real date.  Got all that?  Did I type too fast?  You'll say you got it, but I'll bet you misdirect the conversation again at the very next opportunity.  You JWs seem to think that by avoiding the point with mis-statement, that you've somehow defeated the argument.  Sadly for you, you've only made yourselves look, well, as though you cannot grasp such a simple concept.  You've won nothing but pity, and perhaps sympathy from the more generous people who have completely failed to convince.


No one knows when Jesus was born and if was important God would have told us. And if we were meant to rmember it, he would have told us that too.



He would have told us if it was important??????  He set a special star in the sky, and sent LOTS of angels with trumpets, for Pete's sake!  Are you kidding????  Do you really claim that that was a common occurance???  That is certainly what you are implying!


You assume that God considers us FAR too stupid to make decisions about what we find worth celebrating for ourselves.  The birth of Christ was a joyful event, deserving of celebration and thanksgiving.  If God were to command we celebrate and give thanks for it, the celebration and thanksgiving could not possibly be genuine, so the whole thing would be pointless.  Again, the apparent JW inability to grasp such a simple concept speaks volumes about the religion, of which they really don't want to admit a single word.  There is only gratitude and love in our celebrations, so we in no way even come close to sinning by that.  There is nothing at all in scripture that says, as you imply, that Christians may only express gratitude for what they are commanded to express gratitude, to celebrate only what they are commanded to find worth celebrating.  That you are not concerned about the image of yourself and your religion that you make with such declarations is cause for concern, or should be.


Secondly, regarding your Memorial Service you JWs have you Memorial Service so severly out of context, that you are doing it all wrong, based precisely and especially on exactly what Jesus did on that night, and how He did it.  You are discouraged from getting educations, but any Jew you speak to can set you right.  (It's only non-JWs Christians who are Satan-led, you can speak to Jews, right?)  Ask them about the bread and wine and passing it at meals.  Jesus did NOT tell us to remember His death once a year at Passover, He told us to remember it every time we give thanks for meals.  Such a HUGE error in interpretation is downright amusing, but only because you claim such moral superiority about it.  Your Memorial proves absolutely that you have no idea what Christ did, what He meant for us to do, and what it all represented.  Your service itself is absolute, undeniable proof of that, I'm afraid.  That wouldn't matter at all, if it weren't for your proud claim that you are morally superior to others when you do it ALL wrong.


Will ONE of you please explain why you ignore the Resurrection?


"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 6:12PM #44
Kemmer
Posts: 16,841




No one knows when Jesus was born and if was important God would have told us. And if we were meant to rmember it, he would have told us that too.





He would have told us if it was important??????  He set a special star in the sky, and sent LOTS of angels with trumpets, for Pete's sake!  Are you kidding????  Do you really claim that that was a common occurance???  That is certainly what you are implying!



How do you explain the Magis' birthday presents?  Wink

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 6:17PM #45
mrjordan
Posts: 2,266

Mar 9, 2012 -- 3:17PM, Kemmer wrote:


Without the Resurrection, Jesus was merely one of the major prophets, as the Muslims instruct us.





That claim.


Also Witnesses dont ignore the resurrection of Christ as it is wonderful but it is still not as important as his death as previous post with scriptures backing that up have said.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 6:27PM #46
Kemmer
Posts: 16,841

Also Witnesses dont ignore the resurrection of Christ as it is wonderful but it is still not as important as his death as previous post with scriptures backing that up have said.



On the contrary, JWs revile Christian celebration of Easter as some sort of pagan fertility rite.


Methinks they do so merely to seperate themselves from Christianity; I doubt even they are that ignorant.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 6:43PM #47
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,240

Mar 9, 2012 -- 6:17PM, mrjordan wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 3:17PM, Kemmer wrote:


Without the Resurrection, Jesus was merely one of the major prophets, as the Muslims instruct us.





That claim.


Also Witnesses dont ignore the resurrection of Christ as it is wonderful but it is still not as important as his death as previous post with scriptures backing that up have said.




The resurrection of Christ is central. You cannot say Christ's death is more imortant than the resurrection. Here's the apostle Paul's view:


(1 Corinthians 15:14-17) . . .But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, YOUR faith is useless; YOU are yet in YOUR sins.




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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 7:15PM #48
mrjordan
Posts: 2,266

Mar 9, 2012 -- 6:43PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


The resurrection of Christ is central. You cannot say Christ's death is more imortant than the resurrection. Here's the apostle Paul's view:


(1 Corinthians 15:14-17) . . .But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, YOUR faith is useless; YOU are yet in YOUR sins.







Same Book same chapter you just quoted. 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4


3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


Notice that he did not put the resurrection first in this scripture. Again, Witnesses do not ignore the resurrection as it is in the bible. But as the scripture states, he died for our sins and without forgiveness of sin there could not be a resurrection for anyone. As that chapter goes on to talk about that you quoted.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 11:08PM #49
Svetlana
Posts: 11,315

Mar 9, 2012 -- 7:15PM, mrjordan wrote:


Mar 9, 2012 -- 6:43PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


The resurrection of Christ is central. You cannot say Christ's death is more imortant than the resurrection. Here's the apostle Paul's view:


(1 Corinthians 15:14-17) . . .But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, YOUR faith is useless; YOU are yet in YOUR sins.







Same Book same chapter you just quoted. 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4


3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


Notice that he did not put the resurrection first in this scripture. Again, Witnesses do not ignore the resurrection as it is in the bible. But as the scripture states, he died for our sins and without forgiveness of sin there could not be a resurrection for anyone. As that chapter goes on to talk about that you quoted.



Again, I have to ask if you're serious.  He put it in the order in which it happened, for Pete's sake!  Do you really not see that???  The entire set of three events is what is most important.  Do you realize that you're saying that JWs are the only ones unable to understand that?  Is that really what you want to say?


Secondly, you seem to be saying that you don't at all realize that one must repent of one's sins to be forgiven, His death only made it available.  Thirdly, many people throughout history have given their lives for the forgiveness of someone else's sins.  Without the Resurrection, Christ's death isn't any different at all from all those other deaths.


You DO ignore the Resurrection, you certainly downplay it.  Why?  Your argument that His death was more important doesn't hold any (scriptural) water, especially in light of the scriptures Ann posted above.  Why do you dismiss them, and focus only the slightly twisted version you've given of 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 ?

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 12:24AM #50
Kemmer
Posts: 16,841

Notice that he did not put the resurrection first in this scripture



IT HADN'T HAPPENED YET!!!

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