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Switch to Forum Live View Why I believe in a Creator
10 months ago  ::  Mar 15, 2014 - 5:17PM #11
Shibolet
Posts: 2,656

Mar 13, 2014 -- 4:21PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


From Shibolet:


As a matter of fact, IMHO, the point of creation is simply to depict the nature of God's attribute [did you mean to use the word ability here?] to create. Hence His main characteristic of Creator. The universe simply exists and expands into existence as the fulfillment of God's purpose to create.



No, ability per se is absolute as God is concerned. To create is the essence of God. The main one of His attributes.


From ska:


If you are trying to say that this is your belief,  then you are indeed entitled to come to that conclusion if you so desire.   If you are saying that that your comments represent the absolute truth, then you are pretending that you know more than you possibly can.



If we can call Logic an absolute pattern to reason, then the universe was caused to exist by something that preceded it; aka the Primal Cause. Why? Because the universe could by no means cause itself to exist or to begin to.


In a similar vein in another submission, I speculated that the laws of evolution might be the Creator's way of bringing forth intelligent life in accordance with the prevailing conditions on whatever planet that intelligent life exists.   I specifically stated that this was only conjecture or speculation on my part and I could not prove it definitively one way or the other.



I accept the laws of evolution within the same pattern of the laws of expansion of the universe.


 

From Shibolet: When man was created, he was told to grow and multiply also in them [that] sense to develop his intellect.


From ska: Who told mankind that?



Genesis 1:28 in metaphorical terms.


 

I guess that means that you think the writers of the Bible or the Jewish holy book were inspired by God and the words in those books represent our Creator's ideas.



No, the words in the Jewish Bible represent the ideas of the Jewish People. They chose the Creator of the universe to be their God and have been blessed with a powerful mind. Read the Essay of Mark Twain About the Jews. That's why they have become known as God's chosen People.


  

In my opinion all forms of life grow and multiply according to their ability to successfully meet the challenges that face them in accordance with the mental and physical abilities that they have the potential to possess.   Nobody had to tell them to grow and multiply.   They either became successful at it or they became extinct.



As I can see, you are not too familiar with metaphorical language.

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10 months ago  ::  Mar 15, 2014 - 5:35PM #12
Shibolet
Posts: 2,656

Mar 15, 2014 -- 1:19PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


From shibolet:


Since the universe is not composed of created things only, the evidence of the Creator is absolute truth.


quote]From ska: Please give me an example of something that you think has not been created.



I can't. Didn't you understand what I said above? The universe is not composed of only created things. The Primal Cause had to push the first piece of the domino so to speak.


 

From your above comments it seems evident that if you could prove that the Universe was composed only of created things, your so-called evidence that believing in a Creator is shown to be an absolute truth ---would then become invalid.



You are confused as you read my lines. Perhaps it is my English which is not my mother's? The universe is composed of matter. By no means can matter cause itself to exist. The Creator has by necessity to be in the picture.


 

Your use of logic escapes me.   Creation involves everything, not just life itself.   Under those terms of reference there is nothing in the Universe that hasn't been created.



That's funny. So far you haven't got one to be right of my views and repeat exactly what I believe. My Logic is that the Creator is necessary because there is nothing that has not been created.


  

This sounds like a study in the obvious to me.   Your conclusion leading to an absolute truth makes no sense whatsoever.   If indeed you have studied logic, it appears as if you have warped such a study into convincing yourself that you have proven what is beyond our ability to understand at this time in our history.



Don't worry, as far as I can read you. We are of the same mind in our views of Creation.

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10 months ago  ::  Mar 15, 2014 - 5:41PM #13
Shibolet
Posts: 2,656

Mar 15, 2014 -- 1:30PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


From Shibolet:


  The Creator formed man in the image of His attributes so that man could share with the Creator the control and dominion over the earth. (Gen. 1:26) Then, to do so man had to develop his intellect and multiply his abilities. (Getn. 1:28)


 

From ska: That is nonsense.   There is no way that anyone can say what the image of our Creator is.   How could they possibly know that? 



God has no image. Read Isaiah 46:5 and Deuteronomy 4:15,16.


 

From ska: Oh I see.  Your logic is based on the assumption that what you read in the Scriptures is the absolute truth.   That kind of logic has no roots in reality.   Good luck to you in your attempts to determine what reality is all about.  



Yes, but you have not proved me to be wrong.

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10 months ago  ::  Mar 17, 2014 - 12:58PM #14
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 2,004

From Shibolet



No, the words in the Jewish Bible represent the ideas of the Jewish People. They chose the Creator of the universe to be their God and have been blessed with a powerful mind. Read the Essay of Mark Twain About the Jews. That's why they have become known as God's chosen People.





The Jewish people called themselves God's chosen people and they have suffered ever since because of it.   I believe they did so in an effort to better their chances in [long ago] warfare with the belief that God is on their side.   We are all God's chosen people and if one group pretends that they are better than another, then, such an attitude has the potential to make it possible that they will reap the negative whirlwind of such arrogant thoughts.   However, I do agree with you that the Jewish people place great emphasis on developing an intelligent mind and that is something I agree with entirely.   Pretending that they are God's chosen people was not exactly one of their more brilliant ideas.

We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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10 months ago  ::  Mar 17, 2014 - 1:11PM #15
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 2,004

From Shibolet:


The Creator formed man in the image of His attributes so that man could share with the Creator the control and dominion over the earth. (Gen. 1:26) Then, to do so man had to develop his intellect and multiply his abilities. (Getn. 1:28)


[from another submission by Shibolet:]


God has no image. Read Isaiah 46:5 and Deuteronomy 4:15,16.





From ska


You have told me that you believe that the Scriptures represent the absolute truth.  Well sir the Bible states that God created man in his image.   Now you tell me that God has no image.   I have had enough of your particular form of LOGIC!!   Find someone else to share your convoluted logic with.

We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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10 months ago  ::  Mar 17, 2014 - 5:09PM #16
Shibolet
Posts: 2,656

Mar 17, 2014 -- 12:58PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


From Shibolet


No, the words in the Jewish Bible represent the ideas of the Jewish People. They chose the Creator of the universe to be their God and have been blessed with a powerful mind. Read the Essay of Mark Twain About the Jews. That's why they have become known as God's chosen People.


The Jewish people called themselves God's chosen people and they have suffered ever since because of it.   I believe they did so in an effort to better their chances in [long ago] warfare with the belief that God is on their side.   We are all God's chosen people and if one group pretends that they are better than another, then, such an attitude has the potential to make it possible that they will reap the negative whirlwind of such arrogant thoughts.   However, I do agree with you that the Jewish people place great emphasis on developing an intelligent mind and that is something I agree with entirely.   Pretending that they are God's chosen people was not exactly one of their more brilliant ideas.




Abraham chose God and since we have been too serious about that choice, we have become known as God's People. Better that way?


True that we have suffered a lot throughout History for standing up to that commitment especially from Christianity, but hey! Christianity needed a reason to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.




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10 months ago  ::  Mar 17, 2014 - 5:20PM #17
Shibolet
Posts: 2,656

Mar 17, 2014 -- 1:11PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


From Shibolet:


The Creator formed man in the image of His attributes so that man could share with the Creator the control and dominion over the earth. (Gen. 1:26) Then, to do so man had to develop his intellect and multiply his abilities. (Getn. 1:28)


[from another submission by Shibolet:]


God has no image. Read Isaiah 46:5 and Deuteronomy 4:15,16.


From ska


You have told me that you believe that the Scriptures represent the absolute truth.  Well sir the Bible states that God created man in his image.   Now you tell me that God has no image.   I have had enough of your particular form of LOGIC!!   Find someone else to share your convoluted logic with.




That's not my telling you that God has no image. That's a truth found throughout the Torah and the whole of the Tanach.


PERSONIFICATION OF ATTRIBUTES - GENESIS 1:26 

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over... the whole earth."

The above passage of Genesis has been for years the trump card in the hands of Trinitarians to drop at the right time in the assumed thought that it will guarantee them to clean up the table, so to speak. Well, let them think again, because I have news. It's no longer that easy.

Elohim is incorporeal, and incorporeality reflects no image. But then again, how to harmonize the use of the pronouns in the plural form? The attributes of God, which are part of His essence, were impersonately involved in the formation of man.

Bear in mind that only in the creation of man was the statement issued: To make man in God's image. Since God has no visible image, and man does, it's only obvious that man's image would be according to God's attributes. Therefore, His attributes in a relative portion, were the active agent in the formation of man.

Now, it's imperative to focus on the pronouns used by the sacred writer, since the pronouns are anyways what Trinitarians use to think they have made their day. "Let US make MAN in OUR image and likeness. And let THEM have dominion over everything on earth."

Now, focus on the word MAN. It is in the singular form. Nevertheless, the purpose is for THEM to dominate the earth. If THEM were a reference to man, a clarification would be in order to explain the discrepancy in the Grammar. I mean, that it would be a reference to all men. This lack of clarification was not a lapse of the author, but intentional will to direct our minds to the attributes of God, which took part in the formation of man.

It's interesting and just convenient for Trinitarians to rapidly refer "us" and "our" to God Himself and hide any word of explanation on the plural pronoun "them," which could not be a reference to man. I hope they do not do this on purpose because it would be spiritual cruelty to hide the truth.

I hope we have settled this issue. Since "them" is not a reference to man but to the attributes of God, it's only obvious that "us" and "our" are not references to God Himself but to His attributes. Therefore, the Creator of the Universe is He Who has dominion over the whole of the Universe through man by way of His attributes.
Conclusion:

It's more than obvious that Israel could not uphold the banner of absolute Monotheism in God, and start the Scriptures with statements of plurality in God. The whole issue therefore, was personification of attributes.

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