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Switch to Forum Live View Why did Jesus break a command by god?
3 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2012 - 3:39PM #51
tfvespasianus
Posts: 2,088
Interestingly, on this question, there are individual passages where the LXX should be preferred over the Masoretic text in that it preserves an earlier tradition. This can be inferred from comparing the Masoretic text with those of the Qumran sect and the LXX. Of course, this is all text-based criticism and I am certainly not making any claim for the complete reliability of any one translation. However, to exclude the possibility of later redaction of the masoretic text would be as faulty as assuming the complete correspondence of meaning in translation.  

 
Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2012 - 4:33PM #52
Burnman
Posts: 3,326

Feb 29, 2012 -- 2:03PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Color me naive, but if we are talking about terminology in the Hebrew scriptures, does it not make more sense to look at how Jewish scholars fluent in tHebrew would render it in English, rather than how Christian scholars fluent in Greek would render a translated version of that terminology into English?





Dude, fluent is fluent. Over the years and seeing some of the "different" takes, I think most real translatters are pretty close.


Besides, ancient Hebrew and modern Hebrew seem to have some nuances differences as well, as do the ancient Greek and modern Greek. For that matter, the English spoken today is different then that of 700 years ago.


We have always tranlated or tranliterated one language into another and then into another and so on, throughout history. Frankly, I'm amased that they get it so close as often as they do. Definitly one wierd career path to take. Glad someone else choose it, personally.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2012 - 4:42PM #53
Burnman
Posts: 3,326

Feb 29, 2012 -- 3:14PM, howiedds wrote:


Dave:


not necessarily-the EO and certain indenpendant groups consider the Greek OT just as authoritative as the Hebrew


That was too mild. Jlb will tell you that it is more reliable than the Hebrew. The Eastern Orthodox consider their Jewish Testament in Greek to be more reliable than the Jewish Testament in Hebrew. That's ok. Some of my Catholic friends think that Jesus spoke in Latin.





Naw, he just adopted the latter for our general use.Wink


Vulgar Latin - everyday speech of the Roman people, from which the romance languages developed.; popular Latin as distinguished from standard or literary Latin.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2012 - 10:40PM #54
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Dave:


(we have probably discussed this before)


Is there anything that we have not? At least we both tell the truth as we understand it,s o we don't have to remember what we said before.


But the problem I have with this most rational sounding explanation is it does not explain the"also after that" of verse 4:


The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also afterward when the sons of the rulers would consort with the daughters of men and they bore children to them...


in those days...In the days of the generation of Enoch and the children fo Cain


and also after that...Although they saw the destuction fot he generation of Enoch as the flood drowned the world, they still did not repent. "After that" is interpreted to mean "after the flood." It may be that the implication is that the wives of Noah's sons were descended from the Nephilim so that the children they bore continued to be Nephilim, or that Og, King of Bashan was a descendant of the Nephiim and escaped the flood and many with him.


which I take to mean that the Anakim the Children of Israel faced in the land were from the same kind of unholy unions.


The sons of Anak were said to be descendants of the Nephilim, in this case, men of great physical strength and stature. (Nephilim does also mean giants.) It was the descriptionin in Numbers from the spies who came back and said that the Israelites could not take the land because of the strength of the inhabitants.



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3 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2012 - 1:31AM #55
Australian_Composer
Posts: 2,331

"Now if “Nephilim” are the progeny of the wicked angels, as the Witnesses claim, and all except Noah’s family were killed by the flood, as the Witnesses (from Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, p.42) / Others also admit.  How is that we find “Nephilim” still in the land of Canaan after the flood? If “Nephilim” are the products of supposed intermarriage of angels with women, do they believe it had happened a second time? Let the Witnesses / Others of a similar mind, explain how the “Nephilim” were still alive?"



Also: Story book biblical Angels do not marry (Luke 20:35-36) and Story book god’s will is apparently now done in heaven (Matt. 6:10). Therefore to claim that angels sinned and married defies the scriptures and the power of this god to control its own domain.



 



 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2012 - 8:05AM #56
Esdraelon
Posts: 5,236

Mar 1, 2012 -- 1:31AM, Australian_Composer wrote:


"Now if “Nephilim” are the progeny of the wicked angels, as the Witnesses claim, and all except Noah’s family were killed by the flood, as the Witnesses (from Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, p.42) / Others also admit.  How is that we find “Nephilim” still in the land of Canaan after the flood? If “Nephilim” are the products of supposed intermarriage of angels with women, do they believe it had happened a second time? Let the Witnesses / Others of a similar mind, explain how the “Nephilim” were still alive?"



Also: Story book biblical Angels do not marry (Luke 20:35-36) and Story book god’s will is apparently now done in heaven (Matt. 6:10). Therefore to claim that angels sinned and married defies the scriptures and the power of this god to control its own domain.




Before you start dancing a jig, kindly read down the thread.......


Since when does 'marrying', whether angel or men, preclude having intercourse outside of 'marrying'?


Sin is a choice....you live in it...if God did not give you that choice you would then be complaining that He is a cruel authoritarian forcing His subjects into a conformity of His choosing....


Stow the attitude...it's either bogus or a sign of something deeper.....


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3 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2012 - 8:10AM #57
jlb32168
Posts: 13,400

Feb 29, 2012 -- 2:43PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

Yes, but that was then and this is now. And it still comes down to Hebrew-to-Greek-to-English versus Hebrew-to-English.


I’ll simply defer to TFV, who states it fairly well, HtC.


Interestingly, on this question, there are individual passages where the LXX should be preferred over the Masoretic text [the current received text of the Hebrew Scriptures] in that it preserves an earlier tradition. This can be inferred from comparing the Masoretic text with those of the Qumran sect and the LXX. Of course, this is all text-based criticism and I am certainly not making any claim for the complete reliability of any one translation. However, to exclude the possibility of later redaction of the masoretic text would be as faulty as assuming the complete correspondence of meaning in translation.


As Howie has said, I think that the LXX is more accurate to the autographs than the oldest extant Hebrew texts, but as he also essentially said, we both have a vested interest in our opinions.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 2:56AM #58
Australian_Composer
Posts: 2,331

Mar 1, 2012 -- 1:31AM, Australian_Composer wrote:


"Now if “Nephilim” are the progeny of the wicked angels, as the Witnesses claim, and all except Noah’s family were killed by the flood, as the Witnesses (from Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, p.42) / Others also admit.  How is that we find “Nephilim” still in the land of Canaan after the flood? If “Nephilim” are the products of supposed intermarriage of angels with women, do they believe it had happened a second time? Let the Witnesses / Others of a similar mind, explain how the “Nephilim” were still alive?"



Also: Story book biblical Angels do not marry (Luke 20:35-36) and Story book god’s will is apparently now done in heaven (Matt. 6:10). Therefore to claim that angels sinned and married defies the scriptures and the power of this god to control its own domain.




Mar 1, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Esdraelon wrote:


Before you start dancing a jig, kindly read down the thread.......


Since when does 'marrying', whether angel or men, preclude having intercourse outside of 'marrying'?



That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. (Gen. 6:2) KJV Story book


i) Story book spirit angels never marry - (Luke 20:35-36) KJV Story book


ii) Story book divine angels can never sin -


They are "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who will be heirs of salvation". (Heb. 1:14) KJV Story book 


iii) Story book divine angels can never sin.


1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV story book


2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV story book (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)


If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)


Mar 1, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Esdraelon wrote:

Sin is a choice...



Then why do you self acclaimed jesus' followers Freely choose to ' keep sinning? '.


Mar 1, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Esdraelon wrote:

Stow the attitude...it's either bogus or a sign of something deeper.....



I appreciate your typical anger at being defeated and exposed! Please stop the Ad Hominem attacks in lieu of a shred of credibility for your latest cause!

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 10:20AM #59
Esdraelon
Posts: 5,236

Mar 2, 2012 -- 2:56AM, Australian_Composer wrote:


Mar 1, 2012 -- 1:31AM, Australian_Composer wrote:


"Now if “Nephilim” are the progeny of the wicked angels, as the Witnesses claim, and all except Noah’s family were killed by the flood, as the Witnesses (from Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, p.42) / Others also admit.  How is that we find “Nephilim” still in the land of Canaan after the flood? If “Nephilim” are the products of supposed intermarriage of angels with women, do they believe it had happened a second time? Let the Witnesses / Others of a similar mind, explain how the “Nephilim” were still alive?"



Also: Story book biblical Angels do not marry (Luke 20:35-36) and Story book god’s will is apparently now done in heaven (Matt. 6:10). Therefore to claim that angels sinned and married defies the scriptures and the power of this god to control its own domain.




Mar 1, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Esdraelon wrote:


Before you start dancing a jig, kindly read down the thread.......


Since when does 'marrying', whether angel or men, preclude having intercourse outside of 'marrying'?



That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. (Gen. 6:2) KJV Story book


i) Story book spirit angels never marry - (Luke 20:35-36) KJV Story book


ii) Story book divine angels can never sin -


They are "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who will be heirs of salvation". (Heb. 1:14) KJV Story book 


iii) Story book divine angels can never sin.


1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV story book


2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV story book (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)


If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)


Mar 1, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Esdraelon wrote:

Sin is a choice...



Then why do you self acclaimed jesus' followers Freely choose to ' keep sinning? '.


Mar 1, 2012 -- 8:05AM, Esdraelon wrote:

Stow the attitude...it's either bogus or a sign of something deeper.....



I appreciate your typical anger at being defeated and exposed! Please stop the Ad Hominem attacks in lieu of a shred of credibility for your latest cause!




Again, you can stop the jig......


1) 'wives'....you need to look at the context and translation.....ie...'MATE'...they didn't exactly run down to the local justice of the peace to make it legal...


2) the rest of your premise is false also, exhibiting ignorance of what you attest


3) in the case of the 'jesus followers' because they are human....


I appreciate your typical anger at being defeated and exposed! Please stop the Ad Hominem attacks in lieu of a shred of credibility for your latest cause!


Try amusement....I notice you have been challenged on sevaral posts to show evidence of your prowess and have yet to do so....


g'day, 'mate'.........CoolSurprised



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