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Switch to Forum Live View Pureland Buddhism/ Jesus historic kingdom of God
3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 4:31PM #11
Ferretling
Posts: 254

Feb 25, 2012 -- 3:47PM, dio wrote:


Oh that after death thing, I thought pure landers believed they could live in the pure land in their lifetime. Too bad, can there be a combination of here and now Zen with pure land? I didn't think of Buddhism as other worldly. I thought Buddha was a existential realist. Like if enough people get enlightened pure land happens.





Of course there *can* be a combination of Zen and Pure Land, but as far as I know there is not; nor would it be either Zen or Pure Land. I am not Pure Land Buddhist, but I am Zen Buddhist, and seeking for such a kingdom or land would be, for Zen, counterproductive.



I have a question for you, Dio. Do you just read about Buddhism or have you actually practiced it?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 4:31PM #12
dio
Posts: 5,137

Feb 25, 2012 -- 3:16PM, Bob0 wrote:


DIO:


Here you go again, proselytizing for DIOism.  I know a little about The Pure Land sect. Here in Hawaii I think it is the largest sect of many Buddhist sects. I know quite a few Pure Land Buddhists although they refer to themselves as Buddhist. They have adjusted nicely so that they don't seem so different. They used to provide a weekly dharma talk, which I enjoyed.  One problem you may have is that centrally, they are still Buddhist, not Christian.


I myself often think of The Pure Land as being like Buddhist heaven. But again, you bastardize Buddhism when you refer to the Pure Land being during this lifetime. That isn't what the Pure Land teach. But they do, at least in Hawaii, offer Sunday school and their Priests are referred to as Reverend. Most American. Many believe in the supernatural stories like flowers raining down from Heaven when The Buddha was born, that he never experienced or was witness to suffering as a young man, that he was the most skilled at all he did as a young man, or that sort of like Davey Crockett who grinned him a bear (pronounced bar) to death when he was only three, The Buddha stopped a stampeding elephant just before being trampled with just a look. Rather than distort Buddhism again I suggest you go here www.shindharmanet.com/ and talk with Pure Land Buddhists directly, the B-net Pure Land forum is quite inactive, and see if they agree with your thoughts or possibly you can convert them to DIOism.


Bob



does any brand of Buddhism teach anything like a a kingdom on earth? Are you telling me Buddhism is an other worldly religion? That absurd. The beauty of Buddhism is its emphesis on here and now ness. Living most alive in the real world. Understandably this is a big IF but if everybody followed Buddha's way wouldn't everybody be living in the best possible world?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 4:34PM #13
dio
Posts: 5,137

Feb 25, 2012 -- 4:31PM, Ferretling wrote:


Feb 25, 2012 -- 3:47PM, dio wrote:


Oh that after death thing, I thought pure landers believed they could live in the pure land in their lifetime. Too bad, can there be a combination of here and now Zen with pure land? I didn't think of Buddhism as other worldly. I thought Buddha was a existential realist. Like if enough people get enlightened pure land happens.





Of course there *can* be a combination of Zen and Pure Land, but as far as I know there is not; nor would it be either Zen or Pure Land. I am not Pure Land Buddhist, but I am Zen Buddhist, and seeking for such a kingdom or land would be, for Zen, counterproductive.



I have a question for you, Dio. Do you just read about Buddhism or have you actually practiced it?




Mostly just read but have practiced some simple things.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 5:37PM #14
SeraphimR
Posts: 10,106

Feb 25, 2012 -- 4:31PM, dio wrote:


Feb 25, 2012 -- 3:16PM, Bob0 wrote:


DIO:


Here you go again, proselytizing for DIOism.  I know a little about The Pure Land sect. Here in Hawaii I think it is the largest sect of many Buddhist sects. I know quite a few Pure Land Buddhists although they refer to themselves as Buddhist. They have adjusted nicely so that they don't seem so different. They used to provide a weekly dharma talk, which I enjoyed.  One problem you may have is that centrally, they are still Buddhist, not Christian.


I myself often think of The Pure Land as being like Buddhist heaven. But again, you bastardize Buddhism when you refer to the Pure Land being during this lifetime. That isn't what the Pure Land teach. But they do, at least in Hawaii, offer Sunday school and their Priests are referred to as Reverend. Most American. Many believe in the supernatural stories like flowers raining down from Heaven when The Buddha was born, that he never experienced or was witness to suffering as a young man, that he was the most skilled at all he did as a young man, or that sort of like Davey Crockett who grinned him a bear (pronounced bar) to death when he was only three, The Buddha stopped a stampeding elephant just before being trampled with just a look. Rather than distort Buddhism again I suggest you go here www.shindharmanet.com/ and talk with Pure Land Buddhists directly, the B-net Pure Land forum is quite inactive, and see if they agree with your thoughts or possibly you can convert them to DIOism.


Bob



does any brand of Buddhism teach anything like a a kingdom on earth? Are you telling me Buddhism is an other worldly religion? That absurd. The beauty of Buddhism is its emphesis on here and now ness. Living most alive in the real world. Understandably this is a big IF but if everybody followed Buddha's way wouldn't everybody be living in the best possible world?




It is more of a no wordly religion.  Even the Pure Landers don't expect to dwell in the Pure Land forever.  It is just a more pleasant place to hang around until you stop existing altogether.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 6:06PM #15
Aka_me
Posts: 12,407

Feb 25, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

Then you have taken on the burden of showing that the Pure Land of Pure Land Buddhism is in THIS WORLD.  Otherwise, your point is a fallacy, care to back it up?



Pure Land is another word for heaven... which connects Buddhism with Christianity.

if you don't believe the CIA controls the media, then it's only through WILLFUL ignorance of the information openly available to you. who shot himself in the head TWICE before a new book was released. the corruption is bleeping sick!
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 6:56PM #16
Bob0
Posts: 485
does any brand of Buddhism teach anything like a a kingdom on earth?


No.


Are you telling me Buddhism is an other worldly religion?


No
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 7:08PM #17
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Feb 25, 2012 -- 6:06PM, Aka_me wrote:


Feb 25, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

Then you have taken on the burden of showing that the Pure Land of Pure Land Buddhism is in THIS WORLD.  Otherwise, your point is a fallacy, care to back it up?



Pure Land is another word for heaven... which connects Buddhism with Christianity.




I see, so you can't find where it says the "pure land" is in THIS WORLD.  I thought not, as that's not what Jodo Shu/Shinshu teaches.  


And pay attention, I said they were connected before you even commented.  Pay attention, the issue is "is heaven or pure land in THIS WORLD?"  Since you claimed it was ambiguous and therefore was-you inherited the burden of proof to PROVE IT.  You've failed to do so, red herrings don't change that.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 7:10PM #18
Ferretling
Posts: 254

Feb 25, 2012 -- 6:06PM, Aka_me wrote:


Feb 25, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

Then you have taken on the burden of showing that the Pure Land of Pure Land Buddhism is in THIS WORLD.  Otherwise, your point is a fallacy, care to back it up?



Pure Land is another word for heaven... which connects Buddhism with Christianity.




It would be more accurate to say "Pure Land" is analogous to heaven. It is also analogous to the Egyptian Aaru, the Welsh Annwn, the Classical Greek Elysium, just to name a few. These do not connect these religions with Christianity. It just means they have some similar concepts.


People imagining a blissful place after they die is hardly unique to Christianity. It also does not mean the place exists, or is the same place with different names.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 7:18PM #19
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Feb 25, 2012 -- 7:10PM, Ferretling wrote:


Feb 25, 2012 -- 6:06PM, Aka_me wrote:


Feb 25, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

Then you have taken on the burden of showing that the Pure Land of Pure Land Buddhism is in THIS WORLD.  Otherwise, your point is a fallacy, care to back it up?



Pure Land is another word for heaven... which connects Buddhism with Christianity.




It would be more accurate to say "Pure Land" is analogous to heaven. It is also analogous to the Egyptian Aaru, the Welsh Annwn, the Classical Greek Elysium, just to name a few. These do not connect these religions with Christianity. It just means they have some similar concepts.


People imagining a blissful place after they die is hardly unique to Christianity. It also does not mean the place exists, or is the same place with different names.




Irrelevant, his point was that pure land could easily say it existed HERE AND NOW as Buddhism wasn't clear as he claimed.  He was asked to back it up, and the above was a red herring to avoid dealing with that failure.  Thus, addressing a red herring could only possibly lead to another red herring response, don't you think?


I would however argue (with REASONABLE PEOPLE) that Jodo is about as close to Abrahamism that Buddhism could possibly come... Which shows how ridiculously far apart Buddhism is from the Abrahamic Religions:  Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.  They really have nothing in common.  Drawing similarities of such a degree ("pure land" is like "heaven") could be done with just as or better quality with ANY other book.  There is no point here, nor is there a valid point in the OP.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2012 - 7:25PM #20
dio
Posts: 5,137

Good point the blissful place after death may not exist. Buddhism is not an other worldly religion either, right Bob, the only place Buddhism exists is in this world. If heaven is not of this world it may not exist. Perhaps the ideal is non existence but I say (Dioism) we need to make this world heaven first in order to not exist in the next world. Heaven, if not now, when?

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