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2 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 7:37PM #1
matica
Posts: 3,063
Is this an implied date or just hyperbole?

(from quotes.watchtower.ca/)

*** Watchtower 2003 December 15 pp.14-19 Our Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency ***


Our Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency


"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."?MATTHEW 24:42."ABOVE all other things, the twentieth century was shaped by war," says author Bill Emmott. While admitting that all periods of human history have felt the weight of wars and violence, he adds: "The twentieth century did not differ in kind, it differed in degree. It was the first century to feature a truly world-spanning conflict . . . And, as if to emphasize the point, it featured not just one such worldwide conflict, but two."2 Wars that involve 'nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom' were foretold by Jesus Christ. However, they are just one aspect of 'the sign of Christ's presence and of the conclusion of the system of things.' In this great prophecy, Jesus also mentioned famines, pestilences, and earthquakes. (Matthew 24:3, 7, 8; Luke 21:6, 7, 10, 11) In many respects, such calamities have increased in scope and severity. The badness of man is abundant, as seen in his attitude toward God and fellowman. Moral breakdown and increase in crime and violence are evident. Men have become lovers of money rather than lovers of God, obsessed with pleasure. All this testifies that we are living in "critical times."?2 Timothy 3:1-5.3 How do you view the worsening trend in human affairs? Many are indifferent, even callous, to distressing events of the day. The world's influential and intellectual men do not discern the meaning of "the signs of the times"; neither have religious leaders given proper guidance in this matter. (Matthew 16:1-3) But Jesus admonished his followers: "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (Matthew 24:42) Jesus here encourages us not only to be watchful but to "keep on the watch." To keep on the watch, we must remain alert and vigilant. This requires more than simply acknowledging that we are living in the last days, more than recognizing that times are hard. We must have firm conviction that "the end of all things has drawn close." (1 Peter 4:7) Only then will our watchfulness take on a sense of urgency. Hence, the question that we must reflect on is: 'What will help us to strengthen our conviction that the end is near?'4 Consider the conditions prevailing during the time preceding a one-of-a-kind event in human history?the great Deluge of Noah's day. People were so bad that Jehovah "felt hurt at his heart." He declared: "I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground." (Genesis 6:6, 7) And he did just that. Drawing a parallel between then and now, Jesus said: "Just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be."?Matthew 24:37.5 It is reasonable to assume that Jehovah feels about the present world as he felt about the pre-Flood world. Since he brought an end to the ungodly world of Noah's day, he will certainly destroy the wicked world of today. Having a clear understanding of the parallel between that time and our day should fortify our conviction that the end of the present world is near. What, then, are the similarities? There are at least five. The first is that a warning of coming destruction is given in no uncertain terms.

Warned of "Things Not Yet Beheld"


6 In Noah's day, Jehovah declared: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3) The issuance of this divine decree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world. Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring "the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens."?Genesis 6:17.7 Noah received the warning of the upcoming catastrophe decades in advance, and he wisely used the time to prepare for survival. "After being given divine warning of things not yet beheld," says the apostle Paul, "[Noah] showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household." (Hebrews 11:7) What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in "the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4) How should we respond to warnings we have been given? "He that does the will of God remains forever," states the Bible. (1 John 2:17) Now is therefore the time to do Jehovah's will with a keen sense of urgency.8 In modern times, sincere students of the Bible have learned from the inspired Scriptures that this system is doomed to destruction. Do we believe this? Notice what Jesus Christ clearly stated: "There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." (Matthew 24:21) Jesus also said that he would come as God's appointed Judge and would separate people as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. Those found unworthy would "depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."?Matthew 25:31-33, 46.9 Jehovah has kept these warnings in front of his people by means of timely reminders through the spiritual food provided by "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Moreover, every nation, tribe, tongue, and people are called upon to "fear God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived." (Revelation 14:6, 7) An integral part of the Kingdom message preached earth wide by Jehovah's Witnesses is the warning that God's Kingdom will soon remove human rulership. (Daniel 2:44) This warning is not to be taken lightly. Almighty God always keeps his word. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) He did in Noah's day, and he will in our day.?2 Peter 3:3-7.[...]

"Keep on the Watch"


21 Although the Flood seems remote from our day, it clearly provides a warning that we must not ignore. (Romans 15:4) The similarities between Noah's day and our day should make us increasingly aware of the significance of what is happening and alert us to the thieflike coming of Jesus to execute judgment upon the wicked.22 Today, Jesus Christ is directing a tremendous spiritual building work. For the security and survival of true worshipers, an arklike spiritual paradise exists. (2 Corinthians 12:3, 4) To be preserved through the great tribulation, we must remain in that paradise. Surrounding the domain of the spiritual paradise is Satan's world, ready to assimilate any who have become spiritually drowsy. It is imperative that we "keep on the watch" and prove ourselves ready for Jehovah's day.?Matthew 24:42, 44.
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 8:41PM #2
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

It's the same thing that someone or other has been saying for thousands of years:  "The End is right around the corner, so do as I/we say NOW!"


As I keep saying, whether the end is in 10 minutes, 10 million years, or never, Christians have nothing to worry about (assuming that what Christians believe is real - we don't know it, we only believe it, and we might be wrong).  Submitting to the GB is a bad idea at any time, and the "End Times" don't change that.  I won't do it, and I will be fine.


(All those indications that "prove" we'd better submit now are all factual hooey, too.  The WTS/GB is counting on readers/listeners to be abysmally ignorant of history, or they'd know it's total hooey.  I'm not that ignorant, so this all just sounds silly.  If they're SO wrong about their "signs", why would I trust them to get anything else right?)

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 1:31AM #3
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 967

Feb 21, 2012 -- 7:37PM, matica wrote:

Is this an implied date or just hyperbole?

(from quotes.watchtower.ca/)


*** Watchtower 2003 December 15 pp.14-19 Our Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency ***


Our Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency


"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."?MATTHEW 24:42."ABOVE all other things, the twentieth century was shaped by war," says author Bill Emmott. While admitting that all periods of human history have felt the weight of wars and violence, he adds: "The twentieth century did not differ in kind, it differed in degree. It was the first century to feature a truly world-spanning conflict . . . And, as if to emphasize the point, it featured not just one such worldwide conflict, but two."2 Wars that involve 'nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom' were foretold by Jesus Christ. However, they are just one aspect of 'the sign of Christ's presence and of the conclusion of the system of things.' In this great prophecy, Jesus also mentioned famines, pestilences, and earthquakes. (Matthew 24:3, 7, 8; Luke 21:6, 7, 10, 11) In many respects, such calamities have increased in scope and severity. The badness of man is abundant, as seen in his attitude toward God and fellowman. Moral breakdown and increase in crime and violence are evident. Men have become lovers of money rather than lovers of God, obsessed with pleasure. All this testifies that we are living in "critical times."?2 Timothy 3:1-5.3 How do you view the worsening trend in human affairs? Many are indifferent, even callous, to distressing events of the day. The world's influential and intellectual men do not discern the meaning of "the signs of the times"; neither have religious leaders given proper guidance in this matter. (Matthew 16:1-3) But Jesus admonished his followers: "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (Matthew 24:42) Jesus here encourages us not only to be watchful but to "keep on the watch." To keep on the watch, we must remain alert and vigilant. This requires more than simply acknowledging that we are living in the last days, more than recognizing that times are hard. We must have firm conviction that "the end of all things has drawn close." (1 Peter 4:7) Only then will our watchfulness take on a sense of urgency. Hence, the question that we must reflect on is: 'What will help us to strengthen our conviction that the end is near?'4 Consider the conditions prevailing during the time preceding a one-of-a-kind event in human history?the great Deluge of Noah's day. People were so bad that Jehovah "felt hurt at his heart." He declared: "I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground." (Genesis 6:6, 7) And he did just that. Drawing a parallel between then and now, Jesus said: "Just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be."?Matthew 24:37.5 It is reasonable to assume that Jehovah feels about the present world as he felt about the pre-Flood world. Since he brought an end to the ungodly world of Noah's day, he will certainly destroy the wicked world of today. Having a clear understanding of the parallel between that time and our day should fortify our conviction that the end of the present world is near. What, then, are the similarities? There are at least five. The first is that a warning of coming destruction is given in no uncertain terms.


Warned of "Things Not Yet Beheld"


6 In Noah's day, Jehovah declared: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3) The issuance of this divine decree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world. Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring "the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens."?Genesis 6:17.7 Noah received the warning of the upcoming catastrophe decades in advance, and he wisely used the time to prepare for survival. "After being given divine warning of things not yet beheld," says the apostle Paul, "[Noah] showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household." (Hebrews 11:7) What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in "the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4) How should we respond to warnings we have been given? "He that does the will of God remains forever," states the Bible. (1 John 2:17) Now is therefore the time to do Jehovah's will with a keen sense of urgency.8 In modern times, sincere students of the Bible have learned from the inspired Scriptures that this system is doomed to destruction. Do we believe this? Notice what Jesus Christ clearly stated: "There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." (Matthew 24:21) Jesus also said that he would come as God's appointed Judge and would separate people as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. Those found unworthy would "depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."?Matthew 25:31-33, 46.9 Jehovah has kept these warnings in front of his people by means of timely reminders through the spiritual food provided by "the faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Moreover, every nation, tribe, tongue, and people are called upon to "fear God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived." (Revelation 14:6, 7) An integral part of the Kingdom message preached earth wide by Jehovah's Witnesses is the warning that God's Kingdom will soon remove human rulership. (Daniel 2:44) This warning is not to be taken lightly. Almighty God always keeps his word. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) He did in Noah's day, and he will in our day.?2 Peter 3:3-7.[...]


"Keep on the Watch"


21 Although the Flood seems remote from our day, it clearly provides a warning that we must not ignore. (Romans 15:4) The similarities between Noah's day and our day should make us increasingly aware of the significance of what is happening and alert us to the thieflike coming of Jesus to execute judgment upon the wicked.22 Today, Jesus Christ is directing a tremendous spiritual building work. For the security and survival of true worshipers, an arklike spiritual paradise exists. (2 Corinthians 12:3, 4) To be preserved through the great tribulation, we must remain in that paradise. Surrounding the domain of the spiritual paradise is Satan's world, ready to assimilate any who have become spiritually drowsy. It is imperative that we "keep on the watch" and prove ourselves ready for Jehovah's day.?Matthew 24:42, 44.




Matt this is one of the 'fixed formulas'  or 'three card monte' of WTS,  massive naivete/ignorance is required WTS knows its audience, if you check through WTS publications the  'numbers game' is an old tool.   One of my first experiences was a little while ago when Newt was trying to explain why WTS was not really 'cleaned' 'nor approved'by God's righteous standards in 1918-1919 ....I've posted this before:




Newtonian,WTS said they were completly cleansed,and refined by Jehovah:
Highlights from Isaiah's Prophecy-2 chap. 27 pages 397 Jehovah Blesses Pure Worship

These words in Isaiah harmonize with two other prophetic utterances, the one recorded at Ezekiel 43:4, 6-9 and the other at Malachi 3:1-5. Both Ezekiel and Malachi foretell a time when Jehovah God comes to his temple.
Malachi’s prophecy shows that Jehovah comes to inspect his house of pure worship and to act as a Refiner, rejecting those who misrepresent him. Ezekiel’s vision depicts Jehovah as entering the temple and demanding that all traces of immorality and idolatry be removed.
In the modern-day fulfillment of these prophecies, there was an important spiritual development in 1918 in connection with Jehovah’s worship. Jehovah and Jesus evidently made an inspection of all of those claiming to represent pure worship. That inspection led to the final casting off of corrupt Christendom. For Christ’s anointed followers, the inspection meant a brief period of refinement followed by a swift spiritual restoration in 1919.—1 Peter 4:17.

(end of highlights from article)

Of course that was not the case as you correctly stated. WTS continued to celebrate christmas, and birthdays, and venerate the cross several years after.(discontinued 1926 and 1936 respectively) So their previous interpretations, of being cleansed and refined by Jehovah for "pure worship" were incorrect, less they reproach Jehovah's holy actions.

With regards to the 2,300 days, niether by any stretch of the imagination, nor wishful thinking is WTS application true biblical,nor historical chronology sadly.

Their interpretive counting of that prophetic time period to the datesyou mentioned, 1938-1944 contradicts their previous interpretation:

Highlights from Watchtower 1959 10/1 ppages 600-601 Part 23: “Your Will Be Done on Earth”

The article coments (...Beyond all denial, then, there was “transgression” on the part of the symbolic ‘small horn,’ the Anglo-American Dual World Power, in working for the restoring of the idolatrous “image” of the political “wild beast” to be worshiped by all peoples after World War II. In this way it was using insight and causing deception to succeed “in his hand.” This was occurring at the same time that it was hindering the sacrificial “constant feature” and trampling on Jehovah’s “holy place.” Here was “transgression” indeed...)

(...If we accept this as fulfilling the prophecy of the “transgression that causeth appalment” or “that makes desolate,” when is it that the sanctuary should be “victorious” (JP), “vindicated” (Ro), “justified” (Le), “cleansed” (AS, AV, LXX), or “be restored to its rightful state” (RS)?
It should be “two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings” after that transgression so appalling and so certain to result in a desolation. If the Bible rule for counting prophetic time is applied as already set out, a prophetic year of 360 days being taken as the basic unit, 2,300 evenings and mornings would amount to six years four months and twenty days, each day being composed of an evening and a morning. (Gen. 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31)

Count now from the beginning of this International Convention of London on May 25, 1926, and we shall find that the 2,300 days of evenings and mornings bring us to October 15, 1932.

How was Jehovah’s “sanctuary” cleansed, vindicated or restored to its rightful state by that date? Examine the official journal of Jehovah’s witnesses, The Watchtower, as of that date. Note page 319. That page sets out the Resolution adopted by the New York company of Jehovah’s witnesses on October 5, 1932.

(end of highlights of article)

How does Jehovah feel about this type of teachings in his name?


Imperfectense



April 28, 2010
7:46 AM


















Imperfect-tense - Our refining did not end in 1919 - as you correctly have noted. It was only in 1931 that the prophecy in Acts 15:17 was fulfilled and we began to be called by God's name - perhaps we were not worthy of that privilege before 1931. The "right condition" in our organization was not achieved until the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 which we currently believe ran from 1938 - 1944. And, the light still gets brighter - Proverbs 4:18 - until the day is firmly established - whenever that proves to be.

We need to endure to the end! (Mt. 24:13)


Newtonian



March 28, 2010
2:07 AM








In the vindication of the truth
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:23PM #4
matica
Posts: 3,063

I'd like a jw answer please, (I'd even accept a summertyme response).

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 11:03PM #5
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

We haven't paid any mind to this as far as a ' time limit' or prediction. 



“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2012 - 7:38PM #6
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:23PM, matica wrote:


I'd like a jw answer please, (I'd even accept a summertyme response).




PST - No one is completely cleansed - as the saying goes:


the biggest room is the room for improvement!


Mattica - I am glad you realize PST is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses!


So, is it later than you think?


A couple of Scriptures:


(Luke 12:37-40) . . .Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching! Truly I say to YOU, He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. 38 And if he arrives in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them thus, happy are they! 39 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have kept watching and not have let his house be broken into. 40 YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming.”


(Matthew 24:44) On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.


At this time, though, I am moved to share another Scripture on this:


(Revelation 3:3) Therefore, continue mindful of how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping [it], and repent. Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you.


And, so, are we in the third watch?   Is it later than you think?






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2 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2012 - 7:49PM #7
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

Mattica - I see now - like the young woman in the more recent remake of "The Day the Earth Stood still,"  as she realized Klatu was a friend of the earth and came to save the earth - not for man, but from man!


Granted, just a movie - but the directors obviously saw earth is being ruined and, as Klatu put it, we are at the "tipping point." 


Granted - just a movie.  But one of the morals of this movie involves how God feels about Man ruining this earth and really hits on a reason God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth as per Revelation 11:18.


The good news is that Jehovah will not only save earth from man - but also for man!   Depending on whether people make changes (as Klatu ultimately said in the movie, btw).


Yes, Mattica, if we are not at the tipping point, we are certainly near it!  Many scientists also realize this, btw.


Btw - I really liked that movie - I don't cry watching many movies - but the mourning of the young child, and the young woman agreeing that his father's (her husband's) death wasn't fair - and Klatu watching and feeling regrets over the calamity as the young woman pleaded for mankind...... "we could change!"Cry


Ah, for the happy ending!Smile

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2012 - 7:55PM #8
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

Mattica -  - hmm - look forward to studying the article - Jesus repeated - Just as in the days of Noah, so the presence of the Son of Man will be - does that include the 120 years?


120 years from 1914 - 2034!Surprised  


Just kidding, btw.Smile


 

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2012 - 9:35PM #9
matica
Posts: 3,063

Feb 24, 2012 -- 7:55PM, Newtonian wrote:


Mattica -  - hmm - look forward to studying the article - Jesus repeated - Just as in the days of Noah, so the presence of the Son of Man will be - does that include the 120 years?


120 years from 1914 - 2034!Surprised  


Just kidding, btw.Smile


 




That was a good movie wasn't it, it didn't do too well, I don't know why.


But I no longer hold any faith in the prophetic validity of the bible. But I do care how it is used to coerce and distort human history and the human ability to overcome.


I don't understand why jw's/christians believe the earth is at a tipping point. Time and time again jw's point to 1914 as the beggining of the end, yet the world is in much better shape than it was in 1914. Christendom uses weather events to say the big a is right around the corner, etc. Yet it has been theorized the earth is going through a cycle. As well as the sun is going through a cycle.


And now we have the Aztec calender which isn't religious at all, but scientific to a point../


oy e vay it is enough to drive a person into hysteria.


But the jw's along with most other religions concentrate on a supernatural punishment, a supernatural timeline. They focus on a way to escape what cosmicological events may happen that no one can avoid.


Isn't this just brain candy, conditioning people to pledge allegiance to who they think will make it through natural events. We've seen it in movies like Road Warrior, The Last Postman(great movie btw), The Road, etc.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2012 - 11:24PM #10
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

Mattica - Yes, it was a good movie. 


You don't think earth is at the tipping point?


I take it you do not believe what many scientists say about global warming?


What of the extinctions and near extinctions of many species?


Deforestation, etc.?


Now, our literature does not simply report the problems associated with man's ruining of the earth - we do encourage doing something about it - we have had many articles concerning the enviroment.


I am not sure how many of these are available online - I will try to give some links in my next post.

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