Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:27AM, Paladinsf wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:19AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Paladinsf wrote:

"Who among all these people did the work of God?"

None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.

The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).

IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.

Maybe.

you changed her from a tatted girl on the way to a strip club to a hooker-cheat much?

For the believer in these myths the difference between a stripper and a hooker is DOWD. She has chosen to pervert her god-given role as a female. The particulars of the perversion are of no theological consequence.

Just following your lead, Dave.

total BS

the hypo never said she was a stripper; with all the tats and piercings she is most likely a waitress or picking up her gf after work

Feb 28, 2012 -- 11:22AM, Paladinsf wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:35AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:27AM, Paladinsf wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:19AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Paladinsf wrote:

"Who among all these people did the work of God?"

None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.

The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).

IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.

Maybe.

you changed her from a tatted girl on the way to a strip club to a hooker-cheat much?

For the believer in these myths the difference between a stripper and a hooker is DOWD. She has chosen to pervert her god-given role as a female. The particulars of the perversion are of no theological consequence.

Just following your lead, Dave.

total BS

the hypo never said she was a stripper; with all the tats and piercings she is most likely a waitress or picking up her gf after work

Just your interpretation. Why is that the ONLY valid one?

Sounds familiar doesn't it? You guys have this perfect word of god w/o error or possibility of error universal in application yet - you can't agree on what it says. Just like this little morality tale. Different reader= different reading.

Now WHY would the perfect word of a perfect omni-Max being be as UNclear, as open to 'interpretation,' as vague in meaning, as this little made up by a mortal tale?

Because they are BOTH made up by mortal men using NOTHING but imagination.

you added to the scenario; I did not

Feb 27, 2012 -- 9:32PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:

Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?

Brainscramble,

I am well familiar with James 2. To me, the most intriguing verse is NOT the oft-repeated "Faith without works is dead," but verse 18: But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

The writer is predicting that someone will offer his deeds as an equivalent or better demonstration of character than faith; and the writer says he will reply by challenging the other person to show his faith without any works associated with it, and contrasts that by saying that he shows his faith BY his deeds.

The presumption is that the other person is somehow unworthy because his deeds are not an expression of faith, whereas the writer claims the superior status of doing good works as an expression of his faith. So what the writer is really saying is that faith is what counts. And though he does say that faith without works is dead, the converse is only implied: Works without faith (the position supposedly taken by the other person) is also dead. Both individuals are both apparently doing good deeds, but that doesn't matter to the writer, who thinks his deeds are better BECAUSE they are expressions of faith.

Why should we assume that? I could argue just as well that the faithless person's good deeds are better BECAUSE he has no expectation of pleasing God for he doesn't believe in God, so his good deeds cannot be an attempt to win Brownie Points with God.

The point is that many people read "Faith without works is dead" in James 2 and conclude that the writer is saying that works is what counts. Not so; if it were so, the writer would not have made that dismissive comment in verse 18. The writer is really saying, "No faith? Go to hell. Now, for those of you who do have faith... faith alone isn't enough, and you need to get out there and do some good works... to show your faith."

Yes, you are correct.  Faith must be accompanied by works, and works is useless in the longrun without faith.  They must go TOGETHER.

We are discussing the Bible and Christian thought, as molded by Jesus' teachings.  James was writing to Christians.  They were wrong if they thought that faith alone would save them.  They had to show that faith by good works.

Feb 28, 2012 -- 3:08PM, Brainscramble wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:33AM, Kwinters wrote:

Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:

Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?

James is a forgery, and documents written by liars and forgers are not a sound basis for theology.

And what is your irrefutable proof?

I wonder what irrefutable proof you will offer that it is authentic? In any case here is an extract which explains the chronological, theological, and historical context facts which demonstrate beyond doubt the author was not the brother of Jesus:

'In the New Testament itself we find a book that appears to attack Paul’s teachings, or at  least a later misinterpretation of Paul’s teachings. This is a letter that claims to be written by someone named James. In the early church it was widely assumed that this James was the  brother of Jesus.

For centuries scholars of the New Testament have maintained that the book of James is responding to the teaching of Galatians. Paul taught that it was faith in Christ that put  people into a right relationship with God, independently of whether or not they did
the works of the law. James insisted that works were needed, that faith alone could not bring justification. The two authors use the same language (“justify,” “faith,” “works”), they appeal to the same Old Testament figure, Abraham, and they both cite the same verse, Genesis 15:6. Since Martin Luther at the beginning of the Reformation, some interpreters have insisted that James is contradicting Paul. Luther’s conclusion was that James had  gotten it precisely wrong.

More recent scholars, however, have called this reading of James into question. In large measure that is because, even though the letter uses the same terms as Paul, James  demonstrably means something different by these terms.

When Paul uses the term “faith,” as we saw in an earlier context, he means something relational by it; faith in Christ means trusting that Christ’s death and resurrection can restore a person to a right standing before God. This, for Paul, comes “apart from the works of the law,” meaning that one does not have to do the works prescribed by the Jewish law in order to trust Christ. One does not need to observe the Sabbath, keep kosher food laws, be circumcised if male, and so on.

James means something different, however, by both “faith” and “works.”

For him, faith does not have the relational meaning of “trusting someone.” It refers to intellectual assent to a proposition: “Even the demons believe [God is one], and they shudder” (2:19). In other words, even demons know that there is only one real God, but it doesn’t do them any good. This decidedly does not mean that the demons trust God; they  simply have the intellectual knowledge of his existence. Faith—intellectual assent to the propositions of the Christian religion—will not save anyone, according to James. But would Paul disagree with that? Probably not.

Even more striking, when James speaks of “works,” he is not referring to actions required by the Jewish law: Sabbath observance, kosher food requirements, and so on. He is clearly talking about good deeds: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked (the two examples he gives), and so on.

For James, an intellectual assent to Christianity that does not manifest itself in how one lives is of no use. It can’t save a soul. And so the book of James may seem to be contradicting  Paul, but it is not really contradicting him. What is one to make of that?

Actually it is not too difficult to see what happened historically. In Chapter 3 we saw that there were later authors, such as the author of Ephesians, who claimed to be Paul, but who transformed his teaching that the works of the Jewish law could not bring salvation into a teaching that said “good works” could not save (see Eph. 2:8–9; see also Titus 3:5). For an author like the pseudonymous writer of Ephesians, doing good deeds does not contribute to making a person right with God. James therefore is reacting not to what Paul said but to what later Christians misunderstood Paul as saying.

These later Pauline Christians interpreted Paul’s argument that it was faith, not works, that justified to mean that it doesn’t matter what you do or how you live. It matters only what you believe. Paul’s teaching on “works of the law” was taken to be a general principle about “good deeds.” And Paul’s teaching about “trust in Christ” was altered into a teaching about “what to believe.”

For these later Christians, then, what mattered was your belief, not your life. They thought this teaching came from Paul, and so they too appealed to Abraham, the father of all believers, and to Genesis 15:6, which indicated that Abraham was justified by his faith, not his works. James reacted against that by arguing the opposite: you can’t have true faith without it being reflected in how you live your life. “Faith without works is dead.” This, then, was another controversy over the teachings of Paul as they came to be reinterpreted in his churches after his day.

James does not name Paul explicitly, but it is perfectly clear that his teachings are what he has in mind, at least as they were being interpreted in his day. But was he really James, or was he someone else claiming to be James?

There are excellent reasons for thinking that this letter was not written by the brother of Jesus, but was forged in his name.

For one thing, the teaching being opposed must have arisen later than the writings of Paul. That is to say, it is a later development of Pauline thinking in a later Pauline community. The teaching is indeed similar to the teaching found in Ephesians, written after Paul’s lifetime in his name. But it goes even farther than Ephesians, since the author of Ephesians would never have said that it didn’t matter how you lived so long as you have faith. Just the opposite in fact! (See Eph. 2:10.) Whoever is writing the book of James is presupposing an even later situation found among Paul’s churches. But since the historical James was probably martyred in 62 CE, two decades or so before Ephesians was written, the book could not very well have been written by him.

Moreover, the one thing we know best about James of Jerusalem is that he was concerned that Jewish followers of Jesus continue to keep the requirements of Jewish law. But this concern is completely and noticeably missing in this letter. This author, claiming to be James, is concerned with people doing “good deeds” he is not at all concerned with keeping kosher, observing the Sabbath and Jewish festivals, or circumcision. His concerns are not those of James of Jerusalem.

The real clincher, though, is one we have seen before in relation to both Peter and Jude. This author has written a very fluent and rhetorically effective composition in Greek. He is  intimately familiar with the Greek version of the Old Testament. The historical James, on the other hand, was an Aramaic-speaking peasant from Galilee who almost certainly never learned to read. Or if he did learn to read, it was to read Hebrew. If he ever learned Greek, it would have been as a second language in order to speak it, haltingly no doubt. He never would have gone to school. He never would have become proficient in Greek. He never would have learned how to write, even in his native language, let alone a second tongue. He never would have studied the Greek Old Testament. He never would have taken Greek composition classes. He never would have become skilled in Greek rhetoric.

This book was not written by an illiterate Aramaic-speaking Jew. Whoever wrote it claimed to be James, because that would best accomplish his objective: to stress that followers of Jesus need to manifest their faith in their lives, doing good deeds that show forth their faith, since without works faith is dead.'

~'Forged' pp. 218-220

**********************************

And now that you know why we can know it is a later forgery you can dismiss it as the writings of a liar who pretended to be someone he was not in order to win a theological argument.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is probably one of the most misunderstood scriptures in the Bible and leads to a lot of confusion about salvation.

Salvation from the grave; resurrection is a free gift from God, through the atoning sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ!  1 Corinthians 15: 19-26   Christ was the "firstfruits" of the resurrection! We can do nothing of ourselves to receive the gift of resurrection! No works are necessary! Baptism is not required! A belief in Christ is not required...."As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

But faith and obedience are required if we expect to receive exaltation in the Kingdom of God; or to enjoy eternal life in the presence of God!Works are required to be exalted! Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin; Repentance of our sins; Baptism for the remission of our sins; and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost; all are required for exaltation!