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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 9:32PM #61
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:


Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?




Brainscramble,


I am well familiar with James 2. To me, the most intriguing verse is NOT the oft-repeated "Faith without works is dead," but verse 18: But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.


The writer is predicting that someone will offer his deeds as an equivalent or better demonstration of character than faith; and the writer says he will reply by challenging the other person to show his faith without any works associated with it, and contrasts that by saying that he shows his faith BY his deeds.


The presumption is that the other person is somehow unworthy because his deeds are not an expression of faith, whereas the writer claims the superior status of doing good works as an expression of his faith. So what the writer is really saying is that faith is what counts. And though he does say that faith without works is dead, the converse is only implied: Works without faith (the position supposedly taken by the other person) is also dead. Both individuals are both apparently doing good deeds, but that doesn't matter to the writer, who thinks his deeds are better BECAUSE they are expressions of faith.


Why should we assume that? I could argue just as well that the faithless person's good deeds are better BECAUSE he has no expectation of pleasing God for he doesn't believe in God, so his good deeds cannot be an attempt to win Brownie Points with God.


The point is that many people read "Faith without works is dead" in James 2 and conclude that the writer is saying that works is what counts. Not so; if it were so, the writer would not have made that dismissive comment in verse 18. The writer is really saying, "No faith? Go to hell. Now, for those of you who do have faith... faith alone isn't enough, and you need to get out there and do some good works... to show your faith."

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 11:27PM #62
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

..."Faith without works is dead..." in James 2...


Here's my "interpretation"


(SAVING / spirit-led) Faith without (following spirit-led) "works" is dead (spiritually judged worthless).


I believe in "progressive salvation" .


I surmise that James was preaching against folks who were thought that they were "saved" , but their "spiritual trees" had NOT changed,  and they were not producing "good fruit".


JAMES:


Here's my proof of salvation: "spiritual fruit"!


Where's your proof? ...just your SAYING that you "believe"?


 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 11:28PM #63
subtleguy01
Posts: 2,593

Feb 27, 2012 -- 9:32PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:


Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?




Brainscramble,


I am well familiar with James 2. To me, the most intriguing verse is NOT the oft-repeated "Faith without works is dead," but verse 18: But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.


The writer is predicting that someone will offer his deeds as an equivalent or better demonstration of character than faith; and the writer says he will reply by challenging the other person to show his faith without any works associated with it, and contrasts that by saying that he shows his faith BY his deeds.


The presumption is that the other person is somehow unworthy because his deeds are not an expression of faith, whereas the writer claims the superior status of doing good works as an expression of his faith. So what the writer is really saying is that faith is what counts. And though he does say that faith without works is dead, the converse is only implied: Works without faith (the position supposedly taken by the other person) is also dead. Both individuals are both apparently doing good deeds, but that doesn't matter to the writer, who thinks his deeds are better BECAUSE they are expressions of faith.


Why should we assume that? I could argue just as well that the faithless person's good deeds are better BECAUSE he has no expectation of pleasing God for he doesn't believe in God, so his good deeds cannot be an attempt to win Brownie Points with God.


The point is that many people read "Faith without works is dead" in James 2 and conclude that the writer is saying that works is what counts. Not so; if it were so, the writer would not have made that dismissive comment in verse 18. The writer is really saying, "No faith? Go to hell. Now, for those of you who do have faith... faith alone isn't enough, and you need to get out there and do some good works... to show your faith."





Or, what about people who are considered to be worthless pieces of dung? As an example, let's say a Christian guy driving down the road becomes the unfortunate victim of a carjacking. His ride is stolen, his wallet is lifted and he's been beaten to a bloody pulp. No ID, no money and no one to contact.


Pastor/Priest from a local church sees the beaten guy, but ignore him. Local residents offer no aid.


Young early twenties gal on the way to strip club has tattoo covered body, rings in nose, eye lids and tongue. Her legs are way too long for her skirt. She sees the beaten man and helps him.


Her car is close, so she gets the very injured guy into it and then drives him to a nearby hospital. She's now late for work, but she takes the time to help get the man admitted and then leaves her credit card as collateral for all medical services rendered. The injured guy eventually recovers, but never sees her again.


Who among all these people did the work of God? 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 7:44AM #64
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

ANSWER: The Chick!


Cool...a modern update to the parable (?) of the "Good Samaritan" (half-breed)


...Love your "neighbor"...who IS your "neighbor"?...


who is MY neighbor?”...for example ...The Good Samaritan



SEE:     Luke 10:25-37 (NASB)


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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 8:36AM #65
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

"Who among all these people did the work of God?"


None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.


The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).


IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.


Maybe.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 9:06AM #66
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

Whose "works" were GOOD in the sight of the all-knowing God?


The chick's.


Whose "works" can buy them a "ticket to heaven"?


NONE!


That's what this OP is all about!


Ephesians 2: 4-10 (NASB) ...Paul: Made Spiritually Alive in Christ "FOR good works"



But God, being rich in MERCY (fogiveness),
because of His great LOVE with which He loved us,
even when we were (spiritually) DEAD ]in our transgressions,
made us (spiritually) ALIVE together with Christ
(by GRACE (a gift of unmerited favor) you have been SAVED (from death)),
and raised us up with Him (spiritual POSITION), and
seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the ages to come
He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
>>>For by grace you have been saved through (spirit-led) FAITH;<<<
and that not of yourselves,
it is the GIFT of God;
not as a RESULT of WORKS so that no one may boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (born again from above)
FOR "good works",
which God prepared beforehand so that we would WALK in them.(do spiritual "good works")

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 9:14AM #67
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Paladinsf wrote:


"Who among all these people did the work of God?"


None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.


The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).


IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.


Maybe.




This is correct IF we assume that doing "the work of God" means doing things to please Magician-in-the-Sky and Cosmic-Bouncer checking IDs to keep the riff-raff out of heaven.


The work of God may also mean letting our lives express such qualities as rationality, love, creativity, courage, and especially in this example, compassion, irrespective of whether we hold this belief, that belief, or no belief whatsoever.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 9:19AM #68
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Paladinsf wrote:


"Who among all these people did the work of God?"


None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.


The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).


IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.


Maybe.




you changed her from a tatted girl on the way to a strip club to a hooker-cheat much?

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 9:27AM #69
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:19AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Paladinsf wrote:


"Who among all these people did the work of God?"


None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.


The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).


IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.


Maybe.




you changed her from a tatted girl on the way to a strip club to a hooker-cheat much?


For the believer in these myths the difference between a stripper and a hooker is DOWD. She has chosen to pervert her god-given role as a female. The particulars of the perversion are of no theological consequence.


Just following your lead, Dave.Laughing

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 9:33AM #70
Kwinters
Posts: 21,943

Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:


Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?




James is a forgery, and documents written by liars and forgers are not a sound basis for theology.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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