Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:

Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?

Brainscramble,

I am well familiar with James 2. To me, the most intriguing verse is NOT the oft-repeated "Faith without works is dead," but verse 18: But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

The writer is predicting that someone will offer his deeds as an equivalent or better demonstration of character than faith; and the writer says he will reply by challenging the other person to show his faith without any works associated with it, and contrasts that by saying that he shows his faith BY his deeds.

The presumption is that the other person is somehow unworthy because his deeds are not an expression of faith, whereas the writer claims the superior status of doing good works as an expression of his faith. So what the writer is really saying is that faith is what counts. And though he does say that faith without works is dead, the converse is only implied: Works without faith (the position supposedly taken by the other person) is also dead. Both individuals are both apparently doing good deeds, but that doesn't matter to the writer, who thinks his deeds are better BECAUSE they are expressions of faith.

Why should we assume that? I could argue just as well that the faithless person's good deeds are better BECAUSE he has no expectation of pleasing God for he doesn't believe in God, so his good deeds cannot be an attempt to win Brownie Points with God.

The point is that many people read "Faith without works is dead" in James 2 and conclude that the writer is saying that works is what counts. Not so; if it were so, the writer would not have made that dismissive comment in verse 18. The writer is really saying, "No faith? Go to hell. Now, for those of you who do have faith... faith alone isn't enough, and you need to get out there and do some good works... to show your faith."

Feb 27, 2012 -- 9:32PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:

Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?

Brainscramble,

I am well familiar with James 2. To me, the most intriguing verse is NOT the oft-repeated "Faith without works is dead," but verse 18: But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

The writer is predicting that someone will offer his deeds as an equivalent or better demonstration of character than faith; and the writer says he will reply by challenging the other person to show his faith without any works associated with it, and contrasts that by saying that he shows his faith BY his deeds.

The presumption is that the other person is somehow unworthy because his deeds are not an expression of faith, whereas the writer claims the superior status of doing good works as an expression of his faith. So what the writer is really saying is that faith is what counts. And though he does say that faith without works is dead, the converse is only implied: Works without faith (the position supposedly taken by the other person) is also dead. Both individuals are both apparently doing good deeds, but that doesn't matter to the writer, who thinks his deeds are better BECAUSE they are expressions of faith.

Why should we assume that? I could argue just as well that the faithless person's good deeds are better BECAUSE he has no expectation of pleasing God for he doesn't believe in God, so his good deeds cannot be an attempt to win Brownie Points with God.

The point is that many people read "Faith without works is dead" in James 2 and conclude that the writer is saying that works is what counts. Not so; if it were so, the writer would not have made that dismissive comment in verse 18. The writer is really saying, "No faith? Go to hell. Now, for those of you who do have faith... faith alone isn't enough, and you need to get out there and do some good works... to show your faith."

Or, what about people who are considered to be worthless pieces of dung? As an example, let's say a Christian guy driving down the road becomes the unfortunate victim of a carjacking. His ride is stolen, his wallet is lifted and he's been beaten to a bloody pulp. No ID, no money and no one to contact.

Pastor/Priest from a local church sees the beaten guy, but ignore him. Local residents offer no aid.

Young early twenties gal on the way to strip club has tattoo covered body, rings in nose, eye lids and tongue. Her legs are way too long for her skirt. She sees the beaten man and helps him.

Her car is close, so she gets the very injured guy into it and then drives him to a nearby hospital. She's now late for work, but she takes the time to help get the man admitted and then leaves her credit card as collateral for all medical services rendered. The injured guy eventually recovers, but never sees her again.

Who among all these people did the work of God? 

"Who among all these people did the work of God?"

None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.

The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).

IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.

Maybe.

Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Paladinsf wrote:

"Who among all these people did the work of God?"

None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.

The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).

IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.

Maybe.

This is correct IF we assume that doing "the work of God" means doing things to please Magician-in-the-Sky and Cosmic-Bouncer checking IDs to keep the riff-raff out of heaven.

The work of God may also mean letting our lives express such qualities as rationality, love, creativity, courage, and especially in this example, compassion, irrespective of whether we hold this belief, that belief, or no belief whatsoever.

Feb 28, 2012 -- 9:19AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Feb 28, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Paladinsf wrote:

"Who among all these people did the work of God?"

None. The by - standers couldn't be bothered and the "faith" demands that do. They couldn't so they didn't.

The hooker has given god the finger by her choice of profession. She can't not "make up" for that by an out of character act(s).

IF and WHEN she gets "right with god" THEN, maybe, hopefully, with enough prayer, after enough repentance and necessarily after enough free will gifts and offerings - THEN there is a chance, maybe, god willing, - she gets a pass.

Maybe.

you changed her from a tatted girl on the way to a strip club to a hooker-cheat much?

For the believer in these myths the difference between a stripper and a hooker is DOWD. She has chosen to pervert her god-given role as a female. The particulars of the perversion are of no theological consequence.

Just following your lead, Dave.