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2 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2012 - 9:36AM #81
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

But he also said that it was very difficult for man alone to gain everlasting life, but with god all things are possible.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2012 - 10:10AM #82
Kwinters
Posts: 18,232

Mar 1, 2012 -- 9:36AM, JimRigas wrote:


But he also said that it was very difficult for man alone to gain everlasting life, but with god all things are possible.




I think that is very likely an historically accurate summary of what Jesus taught.  However, that is different from saying that faith in his divinity, death, and resurrection is the necessary and sufficient condition.


What the historical Jesus taught, and what modern Christian theologies assert are in contradiction. Even Paul saw spiritual efficacy in the Law, a value modern Christian theologies would refute.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2012 - 1:06PM #83
Burnman
Posts: 3,258

Mar 1, 2012 -- 9:32AM, Kwinters wrote:


Feb 29, 2012 -- 5:07PM, Lookbeyond wrote:


Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.




1) Ephesians is a forgery.


2) Christians do not believe Paul was a god, so his even authentic views cannot be considered as more authoritative than direct quotes from Jesus.


3) Jesus is depicted as teaching again and again that works are the basis of judgement.





Perhaps it is Kwinters who is the forger here. It's quite obious that she didn't come up with all that on her own, but cut and pasted without atributing who the true authors are.


That is "real" (pun intended) forgery.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 03, 2012 - 1:38PM #84
Lookbeyond
Posts: 578

Kwinters says Ephesians is a forgery! Could it be what Paul taught the Ephesians is getting too close to home to accept it as truth and wisdom? And the wisdom of their wisemen shall perish....I stand by the truth of the Bible as far as it is translated correctly, acknowledging that after many hundreds of translations and/or interpretations there have been losses of meaning as teachings were originally given....that happens when languages collide! We are fortunate to have the King James Version, which I prefer over all the "modern" versions!


Ephesians is no forgery.....it is filled with myriads of valuable information and tidbits from which we can learn as we ponder them.  Ephesians 4:11-14 is one to ponder.....wonder where the Living Prophets and Apostles are today, that should be the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ, since we are not all unified in our faith and understanding of the knowledge of the Son of God.....and we are still being tossed to and fro as children and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.....

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 8:57AM #85
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Mar 1, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Burnman wrote:

Perhaps it is Kwinters who is the forger here. It's quite obious that she didn't come up with all that on her own, but cut and pasted without atributing who the true authors are.


That is "real" (pun intended) forgery.




Other than delivering childish personal attacks, what have you done to argue against the possibility of a of this book being a forgery? Would the load of actually doing some research of your own for arguments from biblical scholars making points fr the authenticity of the work tax your brian to the point of a mental breakdown? 


KW did her homework. She may not have given you reference sources, but then again, you haven't even bothered to post an opposing argument..... Just insults. Now who is lazier? One who researches, and fails to list sources? Or the one who gives no opposing views and simply relies on personal attacks?


It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 10:34AM #86
57
Posts: 20,549

Feb 27, 2012 -- 1:57PM, Brainscramble wrote:


Feb 19, 2012 -- 4:22PM, 57 wrote:

There seems to be a lot of posters here who feel that doing good works is what earns you salvation and entrance into heaven. 
It might lok something like this.....At the end God is going to put all your deeds on a cosmic scale and if it tips towards God...Phewwwww, wipes forehead, I made it. 

The question is, how much good works is good enough?  
How do you know if you works are good enough?  



Perhaps you could pay a little bit more attention to posters such as myself,


Why? You are dead wrong.  Let me explain below.


and I have said repeatedly that we can never work our way into salvation. 


OK. I agree there.


That is why Jesus died for us. 


Once again I agree.


We can't do it. 


True.


However, once we have taken in knowledge about him and his Father (John 17:3)


The problem is, you have deadly false knowledge. As I have stated to you before...it matters who the "him" is.  Your claim is that Jesus wasn't God.  My claim is that Jesus is God and never was not God.  They are different Jesus'.   


and accepted what he did for us by dying (John 3:16),


Did you ever read John 3:16? NO WHERE does it say....who ever believes in Him and does good works has eternal life.  Now, perhaps your bible does say that.  Yes? 


THEN we must do works that befit repentance....our works go hand-in-hand with our faith.  You cannot have one without the other.  (James, the second chapter.)


Is works not a by-product of faith?  A means of expressing your faith?


There are many, many Scriptures that show that Christians must have, and continue in, good works.  Just one that I came across just now is what Paul says to Timothy at ITimothy 2: 8-10.


In no way does Paul tie salvation into that nessage.  Yes, christians should do good works.  I agree. But these works do not maintain your salvation. 


"I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety;  not with...costly array, but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." 


So, I would say, it is apparent that good works goes along WITH faith.


I never said it didn't.  According to you, Jesus saves you then you must work to maintain your salvation.  Please correct me If I misunderstood you.  If I have not misunderstood you  then just how much good works are required to maintain your salvation? 



1 Corinthians 3 10-15 puts it this way....


10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


You will be rewarded for your works.  If you have no works you will suffer loss BUT YET WILL BE SAVED...barely...  It should be interesting to see what kind of spin you put on that verse. 









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2 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 10:42AM #87
57
Posts: 20,549

Feb 27, 2012 -- 7:14PM, dio wrote:


In a nutshell we humans have a portion of responsibility for our salvation. God does most of the saving but each of us has a small percentage  responsibility for our salvation. To God it's only a little bit but to us it seems so huge that we can't possibly do it. Turn the other cheek go the extra mile give away your cloak be a good samaritan.




Once again...just how much is required? 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 12:03PM #88
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Mar 4, 2012 -- 10:42AM, 57 wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 7:14PM, dio wrote:


In a nutshell we humans have a portion of responsibility for our salvation. God does most of the saving but each of us has a small percentage  responsibility for our salvation. To God it's only a little bit but to us it seems so huge that we can't possibly do it. Turn the other cheek go the extra mile give away your cloak be a good samaritan.




Once again...just how much is required? 




Matthew 5:20. "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


There is at least the implication of the converse, that IF one's righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, then one MAY enter the kingdom of heaven. And note that Jesus did not add, "...providing, of course, that you worship me."

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 12:23PM #89
57
Posts: 20,549

Mar 4, 2012 -- 12:03PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Mar 4, 2012 -- 10:42AM, 57 wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 7:14PM, dio wrote:


In a nutshell we humans have a portion of responsibility for our salvation. God does most of the saving but each of us has a small percentage  responsibility for our salvation. To God it's only a little bit but to us it seems so huge that we can't possibly do it. Turn the other cheek go the extra mile give away your cloak be a good samaritan.




Once again...just how much is required? 




Matthew 5:20. "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


There is at least the implication of the converse, that IF one's righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, then one MAY enter the kingdom of heaven. And note that Jesus did not add, "...providing, of course, that you worship me."




It is great to know that the righteousness of Jesus Christ has been imputed to me.  You failed to realize, or mention that the only one who could do what Jesus said to do...was Jesus.  

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2012 - 3:04PM #90
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Mar 4, 2012 -- 12:23PM, 57 wrote:


Mar 4, 2012 -- 12:03PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Mar 4, 2012 -- 10:42AM, 57 wrote:


Once again...just how much is required? 




Matthew 5:20. "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


There is at least the implication of the converse, that IF one's righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, then one MAY enter the kingdom of heaven. And note that Jesus did not add, "...providing, of course, that you worship me."




It is great to know that the righteousness of Jesus Christ has been imputed to me.  You failed to realize, or mention that the only one who could do what Jesus said to do...was Jesus.  




I don't think so. Another thing Jesus did not add at the end of the statement from Matthew 5:20 is, "...but you sinners can't do that--only I can do it." Given his disdain for some of the temple leaders of his world, his challenge to be better than them does not seem insuperable. What would be insuperable is if that statement had been something entirely different: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness is perfect, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." The fact that he sets an achievable rather than impossible goal is quite important, don't you think?

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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