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3 years ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 7:15PM #51
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Feb 26, 2012 -- 3:11PM, 57 wrote:

Why should I deal with your post? You have no understanding.



Why indeed? So tell me, how is this understanding lees meaningful than yours? Since the days of the early orthodox, the scripture has been argued, and dependng on where you stand, one or the other had (has) no understanding.


Feb 26, 2012 -- 3:11PM, 57 wrote:


So, please stop twisting scripture.



The early orthodox asked the same of those they considered to be heretics. But they were much smoother in their requests. The early orthodox peppered their putdowns with more snide, and condensending rebuffs. The early orthodox stressed the the correct interpretation of early texts. There were not only disagreements over which books should be accepted as sacred, but how they ought to be read. In the ancient world, there was no more unanimity than there is today on interpretations of the bible, otherwise there would be no need for commentators, legal experts or literary critics or theorists of interpretation. We should all just be able to read and understand. But if you lock a dozen people away to read the bible, or the U.S. Constitution, one would hear a dozen different interpritations of each. And each could logically assume his interpritation to be the correct version.


That being said..... it's reassuring to know we have you here, 57 to keep us all within the accepted constraints of reading and interpretation of scripture...... 


It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 12:24PM #52
Kwinters
Posts: 21,922

Feb 26, 2012 -- 3:11PM, 57 wrote:


Feb 26, 2012 -- 10:01AM, Kwinters wrote:


Feb 26, 2012 -- 8:15AM, 57 wrote:


Feb 20, 2012 -- 9:55AM, Keyfer wrote:


I suspect that doing good deeds for the sake of reward rather than from love for others and God does not illustrate a saving faith. There is a difference between trying to earn "crowns" for the sake of ego and serving from a loving, grateful spirit. The former reveals a desire to have dominion over others and the latter reveals a desire to serve from a loving, humble spirit. 




The Bible speaks of two judgements.   


One for non-believers and the other for believers.  They are two seperate events.  The first is the White Throne and the second is the Bema Seat. 


At the Bema seat the saved will be rewarded for their "works".  




When will you deal directly with the rather explicit teachings on works and the kingdom of heaven as depicted in the gospels? (see my post 20)




Why should I deal with your post? You have no understanding. 


In fact if your list is what you claim it to be...no one can be saved.  No one can be pure at heart with out God making your heart pure. 


So, please stop twisting scripture.




You should deal with those quotes because - according to you - there are direct quotes from your god on those works that will get people into the Kingdom of Heaven (or God depending upon which gospel you are reading).


In none of those quotes does Jesus say one had to be be pure, or didn't you notice.


And in not one of those does he claim that faith alone will guarentee admission. Or didn't you notice.


The fact is that I am not twisting scripture, I am showing you how you ignore the teachings of Jesus in favor of the guy called Paul. And that renders you incapable of a reasoned response.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 12:25PM #53
Kwinters
Posts: 21,922

As a reminder:


Feb 21, 2012 -- 8:46AM, Kwinters wrote:


Feb 19, 2012 -- 4:22PM, 57 wrote:

There seems to be a lot of posters here who feel that doing good works is what earns you salvation and entrance into heaven. 
It might lok something like this.....At the end God is going to put all your deeds on a cosmic scale and if it tips towards God...Phewwwww, wipes forehead, I made it. 

The question is, how much good works is good enough?  
How do you know if you works are good enough?  



Why not look in your own holy writings?  After all Jesus is the one depicted as teaching that works or states of being will get you into heaven.


Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.


Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.


For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive youBut if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.


All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.


******************************************


That seems pretty clear to me.





Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 1:57PM #54
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,006

Feb 19, 2012 -- 4:22PM, 57 wrote:

There seems to be a lot of posters here who feel that doing good works is what earns you salvation and entrance into heaven. 
It might lok something like this.....At the end God is going to put all your deeds on a cosmic scale and if it tips towards God...Phewwwww, wipes forehead, I made it. 

The question is, how much good works is good enough?  
How do you know if you works are good enough?  



 


Perhaps you could pay a little bit more attention to posters such as myself, and I have said repeatedly that we can never work our way into salvation.  That is why Jesus died for us.  We can't do it.  However, once we have taken in knowledge about him and his Father (John 17:3) and accepted what he did for us by dying (John 3:16), THEN we must do works that befit repentance....our works go hand-in-hand with our faith.  You cannot have one without the other.  (James, the second chapter.)


There are many, many Scriptures that show that Christians must have, and continue in, good works.  Just one that I came across just now is what Paul says to Timothy at ITimothy 2: 8-10.


"I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety;  not with...costly array, but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." 


So, I would say, it is apparent that good works goes along WITH faith.

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 2:49PM #55
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Let me see if I have this straight.


People who accept Jesus as lord and savior, and who do good works as a sign of their faith are saved.


People who accept Jesus as lord and savior, but just go to church and pray a lot... well... uh... okay, we'll come back to that question later.


People who don't accept Jesus as lord and savior, but who do good works just because they believe in doing good works, are NOT saved.


People who don't accept Jesus as lord and savior, and who commit evil deeds are NOT saved.


People who don't accept Jesus as lord and savior, and whose deeds are too dull and ordinary to be characterized as either good or evil are NOT saved.



So for those who don't accept Jesus as lord and savior, it doesn't matter if you are virtuous or depraved, merciful or cruel, honest or criminal... You didn't buy into the doctrine, so the hell with you.


Now for those who do accept Jesus as lord and savior, we're clear that those whose faith is accompanied by good works are on safe grounds--God has their condos all prepared for them in heaven. But those who accept Jesus as lord and savior but just pray all day instead of going out in the world and doing good deeds...


Are those people the "faux Christians" I keep hearing about? Or are they the saints who have withdrawn from the sinful world to spend their lives in ceaseless prayer?



I ask you honestly: How am I to take any of this seriously?


I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 3:10PM #56
Kwinters
Posts: 21,922

Feb 27, 2012 -- 1:57PM, Brainscramble wrote:


Feb 19, 2012 -- 4:22PM, 57 wrote:

There seems to be a lot of posters here who feel that doing good works is what earns you salvation and entrance into heaven. 
It might lok something like this.....At the end God is going to put all your deeds on a cosmic scale and if it tips towards God...Phewwwww, wipes forehead, I made it. 

The question is, how much good works is good enough?  
How do you know if you works are good enough?  



 


Perhaps you could pay a little bit more attention to posters such as myself, and I have said repeatedly that we can never work our way into salvation.  That is why Jesus died for us.  We can't do it.  However, once we have taken in knowledge about him and his Father (John 17:3) and accepted what he did for us by dying (John 3:16), THEN we must do works that befit repentance....our works go hand-in-hand with our faith.  You cannot have one without the other.  (James, the second chapter.)




However that was not the beliefs of the followers of Jesus for between 65 and 100 years or so after his death.


His disciples remained Jewish, preached to Jews, lived in Jerusalem and considered themselves under the directive of the Jewish religious leaders.


The teachings of Jesus in the synoptics say nothing about what you describe above. You describe the theology of Paul.  The Jesus of the synoptics, with the understanding that he was preaching to God's chosen people, preached a theology of faith in God, the Law and works.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 7:14PM #57
dio
Posts: 4,884

In a nutshell we humans have a portion of responsibility for our salvation. God does most of the saving but each of us has a small percentage  responsibility for our salvation. To God it's only a little bit but to us it seems so huge that we can't possibly do it. Turn the other cheek go the extra mile give away your cloak be a good samaritan.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 7:28PM #58
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Feb 27, 2012 -- 7:14PM, dio wrote:


In a nutshell we humans have a portion of responsibility for our salvation. God does most of the saving but each of us has a small percentage  responsibility for our salvation. To God it's only a little bit but to us it seems so huge that we can't possibly do it. Turn the other cheek go the extra mile give away your cloak be a good samaritan.




In a nut shell, I don't follow a god that requires being saved from. Sorry for those of you who do.

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 8:39PM #59
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,006

Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 9:27PM #60
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Brainscramble wrote:


Heretic....please, kindly read the second chapter of James and see if you don't get what I'm talking about, OK?




You're asking the wrong person..... Heretic pretty much stood with me on James 2:14-18, and got shot down by most of the "good Christians" who post here. Chances are, you'll find that in Christian circles, faith alone; that sort of faith where one goes to church on Sunday and then has road rage on his way to Sunday dinner is practicing the same amount of faith as Jesus pointed out when talking to the crowd about not being like the Pharasees seen standing on street corners praying in public.


But what the hell do I know? I'm just a poor misguided Pagan. I don't know nufin about Christianity and how it's said to work, and what really happens once services are over. 

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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