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Switch to Forum Live View Dhimmitude for non-believers
3 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2012 - 6:29PM #11
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

There is much about dhimmitude to debate and discuss.  There is also much to learn about it.   


Feb 18, 2012 -- 5:32PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


There really is nothing about Dhimmitude and the actual laws of Dhimmitude as imposed upon subject people which is up for debate. The Dhimmi laws were purposely designed to oppress the subject peoples in order to let them know who was boss. Pure and simple. Dhimmi laws are the first apartheid laws and in practice were no less and often far more restrictive than the worst of the South African apartheid laws and far more brutal.


The question for today is truly political. It is whether or not the Arab Muslim world will continue to oppress its minorities or whether it will join the modern world and at least attempt to treat all people equally. So far the jury is out on this question.


Since it is  a political question, it deserves to be discussed in a political forum and in a place where people who are interested in Middle East events and politics are likely to know of it and participate in the discussion.


On this board all you will read are Muslim apologetics.





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2012 - 7:11PM #12
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,040

Miraj


The lessons of Islams "experiment" with Dhimmitude are lost on the crowd here.


It really does not matter if the Dhimmi laws were based on a correct or an incorrect interpretation of Islamic law, what matters is that they did and do exist and that there are persons and parties who both wish to bring them back and have the ability to bring them back, and have done so whenever and wherever possible. That is a political discussion not particularly appropriate for this board.


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3 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2012 - 7:19PM #13
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 18, 2012 -- 7:11PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


The lessons of Islams "experiment" with Dhimmitude are lost on the crowd here.


It really does not matter if the Dhimmi laws were based on a correct or an incorrect interpretation of Islamic law, what matters is that they did and do exist and that there are persons and parties who both wish to bring them back and have the ability to bring them back, and have done so whenever and wherever possible. That is a political discussion not particularly appropriate for this board.




A question of whether or not a practice is Islamic or not is a topic for this board.  I'm multitasking at this time, and don't have time to do much more than patrol the boards for now.  However, I plan to comment about dhimmitude when I can.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2012 - 7:34PM #14
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,040

Feb 18, 2012 -- 7:19PM, Miraj wrote:


Feb 18, 2012 -- 7:11PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


The lessons of Islams "experiment" with Dhimmitude are lost on the crowd here.


It really does not matter if the Dhimmi laws were based on a correct or an incorrect interpretation of Islamic law, what matters is that they did and do exist and that there are persons and parties who both wish to bring them back and have the ability to bring them back, and have done so whenever and wherever possible. That is a political discussion not particularly appropriate for this board.




A question of whether or not a practice is Islamic or not is a topic for this board.  I'm multitasking at this time, and don't have time to do much more than patrol the boards for now.  However, I plan to comment about dhimmitude when I can.




Miraj


That may be and I really do not care if Muslims wish to discuss whether or not the practice is porperly Islamic. The purpose of the post was to discuss the facts of Dhimmitude, and the very real desire of many in power to continue and or re-impose Dhimmitude. Of course, there are Muslim leaders who are not interested in imposing Dhimitude, there are those such as the leadership of the PA and Hamas who merely wish to ensure that there are no Jews (and maybe no Christians) in any areas they control, but that is a political discussion more applicable to the original place where this was posted, the Middle East forum.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2012 - 8:54PM #15
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 18, 2012 -- 7:34PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


That may be and I really do not care if Muslims wish to discuss whether or not the practice is porperly Islamic. The purpose of the post was to discuss the facts of Dhimmitude, and the very real desire of many in power to continue and or re-impose Dhimmitude. Of course, there are Muslim leaders who are not interested in imposing Dhimitude, there are those such as the leadership of the PA and Hamas who merely wish to ensure that there are no Jews (and maybe no Christians) in any areas they control, but that is a political discussion more applicable to the original place where this was posted, the Middle East forum.




Having a political discussion about what is purported to be a religious practice is rough on MENP.  Muslims would feel compelled to discuss the topic in context of religion.  Besides, this is conjecture.  There's no dimmitude in Egypt, so we may as well decide about it here.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2012 - 3:38AM #16
Ibn
Posts: 4,868

Feb 18, 2012 -- 5:32PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


There really is nothing about Dhimmitude and the actual laws of Dhimmitude as imposed upon subject people which is up for debate. The Dhimmi laws were purposely designed to oppress the subject peoples in order to let them know who was boss. Pure and simple. Dhimmi laws are the first apartheid laws and in practice were no less and often far more restrictive than the worst of the South African apartheid laws and far more brutal.


As I expected, the topic was not intended for debate but for some kind of attack on "Arab Muslim World". In reality, it is designed for attack on Islam and Arabs.


Feb 18, 2012 -- 5:32PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

The question for today is truly political. It is whether or not the Arab Muslim world will continue to oppress its minorities or whether it will join the modern world and at least attempt to treat all people equally. So far the jury is out on this question.


I know the correct response to that but I am advised not to attack in response to attack. 


Feb 18, 2012 -- 5:32PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Since it is  a political question, it deserves to be discussed in a political forum and in a place where people who are interested in Middle East events and politics are likely to know of it and participate in the discussion.


On this board all you will read are Muslim apologetics.



It's your own mistake that you bring in Islam and Muslim world into it. You should know very well that you can't talk in those terms on MENP board. Talk of religion is not allowed there and talk of politics is not allowed here. Let's go for holidays in Gaza.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2012 - 8:08AM #17
BDboy
Posts: 5,659

Feb 18, 2012 -- 1:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDBoy


Apartheid is a legal system of discrimination based on ethnicity, religion,  race etc...


Dhimmi laws are a legal system of discrimination based on ethnicity, religion, etc...


The only difference is that you and Ibn either pretend that there is a divine reason to treat people like crap or in the alternative deny that a legal system of discrimination which is rooted in Islam and perpetuated by Muslim regimes for 1400 years has anything to do with Islam. 


Again, since you and Ibn refuse to acknowledge the religious problem of the dhimmi laws it can only be discussed as a political problem. Therefore it  should be on the Middle East forum. There is no possibility of a reasonable discussion with people who see Dhimmitude as a good thing based in their theology or who deny that the implementation of Dhimmi laws is in any way reflective of the belief system of which it is a part.





 


>>>>>>> Let me "Correct" you. It was you who brought up Dhimmi, pretending you did not know anything about it. Now that we simply given you answer to the question, all of a sudden it seems you know it better than we do!!!


Amazing!


Dhimmi is NOT a concept ONLY, historically it was implimented and people actually functioned under it peacefully with many rights.


Where I may agree with you in certain countries IF they had a bad ruler, it may have been abused (An example would be Egypt under Mubarak, when EVERYONE suffered under him).


It is ALSO important to note that, NO ONE is trying to impliment anything like Dhimmi laws anywhere. It came out of YOUR brain (Anyone can read this thread to verify it) and the fictional stuff that followed also came from the same source.


Would you be more comfortable to talk about it under political context, you may request the moderator for it. If she/he decides for it, we'll try that.


The concept of "Protected people" is a noble concept when it is implimented as per teaching of Islam. You may argue and question if someone FAILS to live up to the standard but it is a sound concept.




 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2012 - 11:52AM #18
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,040

MIRAJ


Dhimmitude has an effect separate and apart from its roots in Islam. If you were at all honest, you would be bringing the subject up in the ME board. You cannot discuss human rights in the middle east without discussing Dhimmitude. You cannot make an argument complaining about a perceived lack of rights of Muslim Arabs anywhere in the middle east without reference to the history of minority group rights in the area and without reference to the current state of minority rights in the area. Ignoring Dhimmitude when discussing human rights in the middle east is intellectually dishonest. It also explains why the discussion was moved here, where intellectual dishonesty is something of an art form. 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2012 - 11:59AM #19
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,040

BDboy


IF you read the news you would know that Dhimmitude is alive and well and is being advanced all over the Arab Muslim world. Of course in certain areas like those under control of Arab Palestinians there is no need, they just deny the right of others to live in areas they control. That is, after all, the final result and ultimate goal of the Dhimmi laws. No one here seems bothered in the least by the rampant discrimination and worse in the Arab Muslim world. Again, this is a political discussion and deserves to be on a political board and not here. where it is hidden away and where no one who needs to know about it will ever see the discussion.


Once again, I extend my congratulations to those who have been successful in ending yet another uncomfortable discussion of politics and society in the Arab parts of the Middle East.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2012 - 12:28PM #20
Ibn
Posts: 4,868

rocketjsquirell,


When you start listening to the others rather than keep trying to hammer your own opinion every time, there may be some discussion. Trying to clap with one hand is not a good idea.


Next time don't mention Islam (religion) on MENP board and your advertisement might have some effect. Take my intellecually honest advice seriously.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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