Advertisement
 
Post Reply
Page 1 of 5  •  1 2 3 4 5 Next
What good Mithraists!
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 4:08PM #1
Svetlana
Posts: 9,891
I was looking for sources to confirm that the use of bread and wine in thanksgiving, and baptism for purification, are pagan rituals.  I was led to this site and found this.  I knew that Mithraism and Christianity had a lot in common, but I had no idea it was THIS much.  The part I've quoted, about the great battle at the end of everything, made me grin.  How very JW/Christian those Mithraists were.  Or are JWs/Christians very Mithraist?  

Mithraism and early Christianity considered abstinence, celibacy, and self-control to be among their highest virtues. Both had similar beliefs about the world, destiny, heaven and hell, and the immortality of the soul. Their conceptions of the battles between good and evil were similar (though Mithraism was more dualistic[3]), including a great and final battle at the end of times, similar to Zoroastrianism. Mithraism's flood at the beginning of history was deemed necessary because what began in water would end in fire, according to Mithraic eschatology. Both religions believed in revelation as key to their doctrine. Both awaited the last judgment and resurrection of the dead.


 
from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fuzzypeg/Mith... 

"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld."  ~ St. Augustine

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 4:22PM #2
mecdukebec
Posts: 11,898

Mystery religions were part of the burgoo of the Eastern Roman Empire, Madame.  Christianity grew into that milieu and absorbed many of the aspects.  Perhaps you have read Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan concerning early Christian rites? 


They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.


By contrast, considering the crimes of the German peoples against the French nation.  The Teutons have plundered the cultural heritage of France, to include la culture, and have not acknowledged the debt. Mithras, indeed, Madame, and quite unacknowledged! 

A conservative is someone who believes that firefighters, teachers, and police officers are overpaid. 

"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore." 

Republicans experience suffering the way they experience all their virtues, i.e. vicariously. 

According to "just war" standards of Christian theology, if Saddam Hussein killed 30,000 Iraqis, and the Iraq War killed 120,00, how was the War "just"?
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 7:09PM #3
Svetlana
Posts: 9,891

Feb 14, 2012 -- 4:22PM, mecdukebec wrote:


Mystery religions were part of the burgoo of the Eastern Roman Empire, Madame.  Christianity grew into that milieu and absorbed many of the aspects.  Perhaps you have read Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan concerning early Christian rites? 


They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.


By contrast, considering the crimes of the German peoples against the French nation.  The Teutons have plundered the cultural heritage of France, to include la culture, and have not acknowledged the debt. Mithras, indeed, Madame, and quite unacknowledged! 



As you say, the religions of that part of the world, and beyond, all shared many characteristics, beliefs, and rituals.  Jesus Himself confirmed that the use of pagan baptisms and the pagan thanksgiving ritual of breaking bread and drinking wine were proper to be used to honor God and remember His own sacrifice.


What JWs are not allowed to acknowledge is that honor is honor, that what a people do or use to honor one god remain signs of honor to other gods as well.  It's a cultural thing.  The use of a "bath" to wash away sin or wrong doing is a reasonable symbol for anyone and everyone, so all those religions, including Judaism and Christianity, use it.  Bread and wine symbolize the generosity of the gods (and Jehovah), so it is reasonable and proper for any religion to use them in thanksgiving rituals.  In my opinion, Jesus made that very clear.


What matters is not what I do to honor God, what matters is what I intend with whatever I do.  If I use bread and wine to thank some god or goddess of fertility, I displease Jehovah.  If I use the same bread and wine to thank Him and commemorate the sacrifice of Christ, I please Jehovah.  It's not what I do or use, it's what I intend with those things and actions.

"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld."  ~ St. Augustine

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 9:03PM #4
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 5,234

What matters is not what I do to honor God, what matters is what I intend with whatever I do.



Not quite.   The Israelites bowed to a calf and called it a 'festival to Jehovah.'


(Exodus 32:5-10) . . .. Finally Aaron called out and said: “There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.” 6 So on the next day they were early in rising, and they began offering up burnt offerings and presenting communion sacrifices. After that the people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time. 7 Jehovah now said to Moses: “Go, descend, because your people whom you led up out of the land of Egypt have acted ruinously. 8 They have turned aside in a hurry from the way I have commanded them to go. They have made a molten statue of a calf for themselves and keep bowing down to it and sacrificing to it and saying, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.’” 9 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have looked at this people and here it is a stiff-necked people. 10 So now let me be, that my anger may blaze against them and I may exterminate them, and let me make you into a great nation.”



As far as celebrating the Lord's evening meal, do it when it was commanded to be done, for the reason it was commanded to be done, and in the way it was commanded to be done, and Jehovah will be pleased with you.  This year, April 5, after sundown!Wink

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.

Attaching to (choosing not to let go of) your own painful interpretations of events, ideas, people, etc. results in 'self-created suffering.'

Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---
http://www.amazon.com/The-Brain-Mechanic-Maximize-Emotional/product-reviews/0757315569/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 9:53PM #5
Svetlana
Posts: 9,891

Feb 14, 2012 -- 9:03PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


What matters is not what I do to honor God, what matters is what I intend with whatever I do.



Not quite.   The Israelites bowed to a calf and called it a 'festival to Jehovah.'


(Exodus 32:5-10) . . .. Finally Aaron called out and said: “There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.” 6 So on the next day they were early in rising, and they began offering up burnt offerings and presenting communion sacrifices. After that the people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time. 7 Jehovah now said to Moses: “Go, descend, because your people whom you led up out of the land of Egypt have acted ruinously. 8 They have turned aside in a hurry from the way I have commanded them to go. They have made a molten statue of a calf for themselves and keep bowing down to it and sacrificing to it and saying, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.’” 9 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have looked at this people and here it is a stiff-necked people. 10 So now let me be, that my anger may blaze against them and I may exterminate them, and let me make you into a great nation.”


Yup.  And Jesus came and taught HIS lesson.  The Israelites honored the golden statue, no non-JW honors anyone or anything but God alone.  We obey Christ, we don't have to worry about golden calves.



As far as celebrating the Lord's evening meal, do it when it was commanded to be done, for the reason it was commanded to be done, and in the way it was commanded to be done, and Jehovah will be pleased with you.  This year, April 5, after sundown!



Actually, you guys do it wrong on all those counts.  The breaking of the bread and passing of the cup are done at EVERY Sabbath meal, the reason is for the giving of thanks and blessing of the food (and for Christians, the ADDED reason of commemorating Christ's sacrifice), and the way in which it was always done, and still is, is to include EVERYONE at the table, regardless of faith or nationality.  Your WTS has taken it completely out of its context and has changed all the rules and meanings, and has excluded everyone but JW elites.  I don't believe, however, that you will be killed by Jehovah for it, your WTS will simply have to answer for denying participation to everyone, that's all.  That's how they harm others.  You JWs only harm yourselves by not partaking at every Sunday dinner, and by agreeing that you don't deserve to participate in a ceremony to which Jesus invited every person on earth.


Your religion isn't the only one to exclude people from this practice.  I'm unkind, so I can't wait to see the reactions of these people when they have to explain to Christ how they had the gall to UNinvite those whom He had specifically invited (the practice of the breaking of bread and passing the cup was specifically meant for everyone at the table, regardless of faith or nationality.  I know that, because I, a Christian, have participated in this in an Orthodox Jewish home.  That was the Jewish practice which Christ amended (He did not create it) to include commemoration of His sacrifice).  Good luck to them in thinking up excuses for editing Christ's guest list!

"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld."  ~ St. Augustine

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 10:17PM #6
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 5,234

Jesus instituted his last meal on Passover, not Sabbath.


(Mark 14:13-16) . . ., 14 and wherever he goes inside say to the householder, ‘The Teacher says: “Where is the guest room for me where I may eat the passover with my disciples?”’ 15 And he will show YOU a large upper room, furnished in preparation; and there prepare for us.” 16 So the disciples went out, and they entered the city and found it just as he said to them; and they prepared for the passover.


The next day, Nisan 15,  was Sabbath, (which began the evening after Nisan 14, which was the day Jesus died)  in fact it was a 'great Sabbath, which occured when a regular Sabbath coincided with the day after Passover, which was always a Sabbath no matter what day it fell on.



So where you get the idea that it was to be a Sabbath meal, I can't imagine. 


Passover was a yearly celebration.


“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.

Attaching to (choosing not to let go of) your own painful interpretations of events, ideas, people, etc. results in 'self-created suffering.'

Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---
http://www.amazon.com/The-Brain-Mechanic-Maximize-Emotional/product-reviews/0757315569/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 10:42PM #7
Svetlana
Posts: 9,891

Feb 14, 2012 -- 10:17PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Jesus instituted his last meal on Passover, not Sabbath.


(Mark 14:13-16) . . ., 14 and wherever he goes inside say to the householder, ‘The Teacher says: “Where is the guest room for me where I may eat the passover with my disciples?”’ 15 And he will show YOU a large upper room, furnished in preparation; and there prepare for us.” 16 So the disciples went out, and they entered the city and found it just as he said to them; and they prepared for the passover.


The next day, Nisan 15,  was Sabbath, (which began the evening after Nisan 14, which was the day Jesus died)  in fact it was a 'great Sabbath, which occured when a regular Sabbath coincided with the day after Passover, which was always a Sabbath no matter what day it fell on.



So where you get the idea that it was to be a Sabbath meal, I can't imagine. 


Passover was a yearly celebration.




Yes, but saying thanks before a meal was done at every Sabbath meal as well.  As I posted, I've participated in this myself, it is still practiced.  It is a common Jewish practice, and is older than Christ.  It's the Jewish version of saying grace.  It should go without saying that if it's done at the Sabbath, it will be done at every special meal.


It is common knowledge, and practice, among Jews, and among those who are familiar with Jewish practice.  Do you only give thanks for a meal once a year?  Then why do you think Jews only do so once a year?  (They give thanks for every meal, but this particular ceremony is reserved for Sabbath meals only, I believe.)  Your WTS has taken it completely out of context and doesn't teach that it is also for the blessing of the food and giving thanks for it (most Christian churches have), but it remains as the Jews have always practiced it, and as Jesus practiced it with the Apostles - at every Sabbath and special meal, in thanksgiving for, and blessing of, the food in addition to commemorating His sacrifice, and including everyone at the table.  That's what He meant when He said, "Whenever you do this, do it in memory of me."  He meant, "Whenever you give thanks for your meal, remember to give thanks for what I'm going to do for you."  As Christians, we should commemorate Christ's sacrifice every time we give thanks for our meals, as a matter of fact.


This isn't described in such detail in the Bible, because the original target audience were Jews or very familiar with Jewish practice, and this went without saying, everyone knew it, it was part of their regular lives.  WE need to be told this, but they didn't.  It's part of the cultural context without which we cannot completely understand all of Christ's teachings.  We need to know as much about Jewish culture and practice as the 1st century Jews did.

"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld."  ~ St. Augustine

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 11:15PM #8
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 5,234

It is not for the blessing of food and giving thanks that Jesus said 'Keep doing this.'



(1 Corinthians 11:23-26) 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.



It was a celebration he instituted that included passing unleavened bread to represent his body, and wine to represent his blood, in announcing a new covenant which his sacrifice would validate.  The Christians were commanded to 'keep doing this.'


This took place after the Passover meal, and replaces the Passover meal for Christians.


“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.

Attaching to (choosing not to let go of) your own painful interpretations of events, ideas, people, etc. results in 'self-created suffering.'

Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---
http://www.amazon.com/The-Brain-Mechanic-Maximize-Emotional/product-reviews/0757315569/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 15, 2012 - 12:19AM #9
Kemmer
Posts: 12,481

It was a celebration he instituted that included passing unleavened bread to represent his body, and wine to represent his blood, in announcing a new covenant which his sacrifice would validate.  The Christians were commanded to 'keep doing this.'



And so it is done hundreds of thousands of times a day in Christian churches, cathedrals, and chapels all over the world.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 15, 2012 - 8:33AM #10
mecdukebec
Posts: 11,898

Feb 14, 2012 -- 7:09PM, Svetlana wrote:


Feb 14, 2012 -- 4:22PM, mecdukebec wrote:


Mystery religions were part of the burgoo of the Eastern Roman Empire, Madame.  Christianity grew into that milieu and absorbed many of the aspects.  Perhaps you have read Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan concerning early Christian rites? 


They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.


By contrast, considering the crimes of the German peoples against the French nation.  The Teutons have plundered the cultural heritage of France, to include la culture, and have not acknowledged the debt. Mithras, indeed, Madame, and quite unacknowledged! 



As you say, the religions of that part of the world, and beyond, all shared many characteristics, beliefs, and rituals.  Jesus Himself confirmed that the use of pagan baptisms and the pagan thanksgiving ritual of breaking bread and drinking wine were proper to be used to honor God and remember His own sacrifice.


What JWs are not allowed to acknowledge is that honor is honor, that what a people do or use to honor one god remain signs of honor to other gods as well.  It's a cultural thing.  The use of a "bath" to wash away sin or wrong doing is a reasonable symbol for anyone and everyone, so all those religions, including Judaism and Christianity, use it.  Bread and wine symbolize the generosity of the gods (and Jehovah), so it is reasonable and proper for any religion to use them in thanksgiving rituals.  In my opinion, Jesus made that very clear.


What matters is not what I do to honor God, what matters is what I intend with whatever I do.  If I use bread and wine to thank some god or goddess of fertility, I displease Jehovah.  If I use the same bread and wine to thank Him and commemorate the sacrifice of Christ, I please Jehovah.  It's not what I do or use, it's what I intend with those things and actions.





ex opere operato, Madame, is the Latin Patristic term, to designate the Sacrament's efficacy; i.e., without regard to the celebrant's intentions, or their engagement in a Teutonic Bacchanalia the night before.    Rather smart of those Fathers, and their Latinate (non-Germanic language) selves. 

A conservative is someone who believes that firefighters, teachers, and police officers are overpaid. 

"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore." 

Republicans experience suffering the way they experience all their virtues, i.e. vicariously. 

According to "just war" standards of Christian theology, if Saddam Hussein killed 30,000 Iraqis, and the Iraq War killed 120,00, how was the War "just"?
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 5  •  1 2 3 4 5 Next
Post Reply
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook