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Switch to Forum Live View For all - Evidence for Jehovah's existence and His personality
3 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 6:37PM #141
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Mar 19, 2012 -- 11:44PM, Ed2 wrote:


Also, GTBSH, I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being "concerned that God had to use subterfuge as a means to an end" in my post #137.




I was unaware that I am obligated to challenge every single one of your opinions?

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 3:26AM #142
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 20, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 11:44PM, Ed2 wrote:


Also, GTBSH, I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being "concerned that God had to use subterfuge as a means to an end" in my post #137.




I was unaware that I am obligated to challenge every single one of your opinions?




LOL So sorry, so sorry, but that's funny, GTBHS. LOL Smile

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 7:51AM #143
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 969



Through the means of the atonement, which is the message of the reconciliation, which means restoring us to our proper relationship with God.  (Which is huge evidence for God's personality, how much effort he has gone through to reconcile with us!)


(2 Corinthians 5:19) . . .that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and he committed the word of the reconciliation to us.




me·di·a·tor


n.
1. One that mediates, especially one that reconciles differences between disputants.


1.mediator- a negotiator who acts as a link between parties



mediatrix - a woman who is a mediator

conciliator, make-peace, pacifier, peacemaker, reconciler - someone who tries to bring peace


What about the resounding evidence that Jesus Christ IS THE" MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN" .... ALL MANKIND AS DIVINE SCRIPTURE PROVES OVER AND OVER!


And WTS jws deny, and parce, and exclude to only a symbolic number, of humans specifically today the  'responsible' stooges at brooklyn (gb) who self aggrandize themselves as the only ones through whom everyone else can get to Christ and then to God!


Blasphemy against the truthful operation of God's Holy Spirit by any other name!


Yet humble credentiald bible scholars concur with what "the bible really teaches":



Barnes' Notes on the Bible

For there is one God - This is a reason for offering prayer for all people, and for the declaration 1 Timothy 2:4 that God desires that all people should be saved.


(...)


The argument is, that there is the same Mediator between God and all people. He is not the Mediator between God and a part of the human race, but between "God and men," implying that He desired the salvation of the race. Whatever love there was in giving the Mediator at all, was love for all the race; whatever can be argued from that about the interest which God has in man, is proof of his interest in the race at large.


It is proper, therefore, to pray for all. It may be remarked here that there is but one Mediator. There is not one for kings and another for their subjects; one for the rich and another for the poor; one for the master and another for the slave.


All are on the same level, and the servant may feel that, in the gift of a Mediator, God regarded him with the same interest that he did his master.


It may be added also that the doctrine of the Papists that the saints or the Virgin Mary may act as mediators to procure blessings for us, is false. There is but "one Mediator;" and but one is necessary. Prayer offered to the "saints," or to the "Virgin," is idolatry, and at the same time removes the one great Mediator from the office which he alone holds, of making intercession with God.


bible.cc/1_timothy/2-5.htm


WTS teaches:


WT 1996 7/1 p.
The table of showbread reminds the great crowd that to remain spiritually healthy, they must regularly partake of spiritual food from the Bible and from publications of “the faithful and discreet slave.”


BLASPHEMY!


I must say aside from creation, Jesus is the greatest evidence that Jehovah exist!  For better or for worse.


In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 7:12PM #144
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 17, 2012 -- 11:17PM, Ed2 wrote:


Mar 17, 2012 -- 3:15PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


I'm more interested in knowing what I am supposed to do. .  . 




Which is starting to seem more and more like what the Bible's real purpose is:


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4... (post #70)


which is to cause people to follow a certain mode of behavior that is considered to be righteous and holy.




I just wanted to respond to my post #134 and make it clear that I am not against good behavior. However, the point that I was trying to make was that the Bible seems to have been put here on earth to originally cause the Hebrew race to adhere to a certain mode of behavior and to follow a certain code of ethics...which were very strict and brutal...but at the same time, seem to yield some good results in their society.(Inspite of the relentless and the brutal enforcement of those laws.) 

And later, Christianity became an offspring of Judiasm and had a kinder and gentler code of eithics to live by. And I have nothing against the kinder and gentler code of ethics of Christianity.


However, with it's 'last days' prophecies which protray very general events that could apply to any generation that existed since the 1st century....events such as earthquakes, wars, famine, diesase, lawlessness and the like....it just doesn't appear that the Bible is what it seems to claim to be....or at least what some people interpret it as being.


But at best, it seems to be a book which was put here to regulate society. Although that within itself, doesn't really seem like a bad thing....especially with all of the problems that our youth have in society. However, there seems to be an imperfection or a deficiency in the Bible as far as it being the inspired word of an all powerful and all wise super deity.  

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2012 - 11:48AM #145
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 19, 2012 -- 11:44PM, Ed2 wrote:


Also, GTBSH, I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being "concerned that God had to use subterfuge as a means to an end" in my post #137.




Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also, GTBSH, I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being "concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end" in my post #137.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2012 - 4:13PM #146
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

And the reason being is that in that thread, it looks like Christians throughout all the centuries have been led to believe that the 'Kingdom was near' and that the end of the world was nigh...which even you admitted was for the purpose of getting them to live as good Christians.


Therefore, what I have concern about in all this is that if God is the one who inspired men to write the words that are in the Bible, then I am concerned that God had to use subterfuge as a means to an end.





You evidently think it is very important I address your opinion that there is any 'subterfuge' involved here. 


God flat out asks us to live as though the Kingdom is near.


(2 Peter 3:11-12) 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, . . .


It also gives us many scriptural thoughts to keep the 'great day of Jehovah' well in mind.  So where's the subterfuge?

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2012 - 5:45PM #147
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 31, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


And the reason being is that in that thread, it looks like Christians throughout all the centuries have been led to believe that the 'Kingdom was near' and that the end of the world was nigh...which even you admitted was for the purpose of getting them to live as good Christians.


Therefore, what I have concern about in all this is that if God is the one who inspired men to write the words that are in the Bible, then I am concerned that God had to use subterfuge as a means to an end.





You evidently think it is very important I address your opinion that there is any 'subterfuge' involved here. 



Actually, it was more important that you didn't address my opinion that there is any subterfuge involved in the scriptures that we were discussing. Wink


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4... (see post #142)


Mar 31, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


God flat out asks us to live as though the Kingdom is near.


(2 Peter 3:11-12) 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, . . .


It also gives us many scriptural thoughts to keep the 'great day of Jehovah' well in mind.  So where's the subterfuge?



Click on the "post #53" link in my signature and read that post and the related posts after it(all the way up to post #75)....and you will find the answer.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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9 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2014 - 8:43AM #148
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

Feb 14, 2012 -- 7:25AM, Newtonian wrote:

You all of course, it is not just Knowsnothing that will be interested in examinity this evidence.   Anyone who wished to post pro or con on this subject is welcome.


Because the evidence involves virtually all fields of study and certainly all fields of science, feel free to start  your own thread on any specific field of study.


There are two purposes for this thread.  One is to post on actual evidence, of course.   But another is to actually identify the fields of study involved.

On this thread I will post on only one field of study: chemistry and the origin of life.

But first, I wanted to try to make an exhaustive list of all the fields of study involved.

So this post will be continually edited as more fields of study are added to this outline. 


1.  Astronomy 

2.  Cosmology


3.  Astro-physics


4.  Theoretical physics


5.  Biology


6.  Anthropology


7.  Chemistry


8.  Geochemistry


9.  Volcanology


10.  Geology


11. Plate tectonics


12.  Earth Science


13. Physics


14. Micro-biology


15.  Particle physics


16.  Probability and statistics


17.  Origin of Life synthesis experiments and scenarios


18.  History


19.  Linguistics


20.  Geology

21. botany


22. breeding 


23. radiometric dating


24. Oceanography


25. Materials science


26.  Genetics and epigenetics


27.  Microevolution mechanisms


28.  Creationist and Evolutionist models, i.e. the scientific evidence involved


29.  Zoology


30.  Migration [e.g. how black-cap chicatee & Monarch butterfly determine locations they have never seen]


OK, I suspect there are actually over 100 fields of study required for an exhaustive examination of the evidence - i.e. for complete application of Romans 1:20.   Feel free to post additional fields of study involved with "examining gthe things made" to determine God's power and qualities.                                                                                                       



Bump to help you all help me list the proofs of God's existence from each of the above fields of science.

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9 months ago  ::  Jan 26, 2014 - 8:47AM #149
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

Feb 14, 2012 -- 7:59AM, Newtonian wrote:


As I said - on this thread I will post on chemistry and the origin of life.


At the outset we need to determine to what extent the laws and properties of our universe are fine tuned for the existence of life, and to what extent direct separate intelligent design and creation were required for the origin of life.


Detail on these properties and laws involve other fields of study on the list - so I will post in depth on them separately.


For now, know that the existence of the chemicals required for life initially required our universe to be fine tuned for the existence of stars, because all chemicals other than Hydrogen, Helium and a little Lithium required stars to produce.


Isaiah 40:26 shows that the existence of stars required plural forms of God's dynamic energy (Hebrew plural ohnim) and power (Hebrew koach).   For example, gravity and dark energy are both invisible forms of energy that involved the fine tuning of the expansion rate of our universe such that stars could come to exist.


But that is for another thread.  Suffice it to say that elements like Oxygen, Nitrogen and Carbon are required for life, and these would not exist without stars and, for example, supernovae.


Life is not simply a combination of these elements.  Life requires informational molecules, not merely statistical molecules.   Not only must these molecules contain information, but also there needs to be reader molecules to translate and  use this information.


One example is messenger RNA - but here we enter another field of study: micro-biology.   Not to mention genetics and epigenetics.


For this thread, there are two basic chemical evolution models most scientists espouse:


1.  Protein first models.  


2   RNA first models.


For this post I will zero in on protein first models, as these have been the most popular in origin of life synthesis experiments.  E.g. Miller's oft quoted and famous origin of life synthesis experiment was assuming a protein first model.


For those of you who are not familiar with these sciences, know that protein first models require amino acids as first steps while RNA first models require necleic acids as first steps - and that the environments required for the synthesis of different nucleic acids is different than the required envirionment for  different amino acids - and also that different environments favor different amino acids..


And since this is a forum devoted to discussing Jehovah's Witnesses I will be posting quotes from our literature before delving more deeply into the various points involved.


Here is a brief list of lines of evidence favoring creation (intelligent design) over chance chemical evolution of life:


1.  Life requires left hand polarized amino acids only.   Chance combinations of amino acids are half left handed and half right handed.  An intelligent chemist would be required (i.e. intelligent design) to select only left handed polarized amino acids.


2.  Life requires alpha-peptide bonded polypeptides (higher up from amino acids - more complex) for life.   More on this later.


3.  Earth's primordial waters contained ions of Calcium, Potassium and Sodium - which will not allow the existence of organic molecultes - these ions would either destroy or preciptate out various organic molecules.   This requires examining geochemistry evidence - specifically the vast carbonate deposits which require the geologic carbon cycle to produce which required oceans with these dissolved ions plus dissoved CO2


3.   Chemical evolution scenarios require a lack of Oxygen - however, Oxygen is the most abundant element in earth's crust!   E.g. carbonates are CO4 - 4 Oxygens for each carbon.   Chemical evolution models involve methane (CH4) and ammonia (NH3) - note these have zero oxygen atoms!    The evidence of the carbonate deposits overwhelmingly proves the early earth atmosphere had an abundance of CO2 - carbon dioxide - not CH4 - i.e. not 4 hydrogens and zero oxygens for each carbon atom, but two Oxygens for each carbon molecule.


4.  There is a plethora of evidence for water on the early earth, and less free Oxygen than at present.    The problem for chemical evolutionists here is that UV irradiation dissociates water into hydrogen (2 atoms - one molecule) and oxygen (one atom - highly reactive until it becomes the O2 molecule, which is still fairly highly reactive).


Would there have been higher radiation on early earth?  Not likely below the water canope, in that model.   But certainly there would be no protective ozone layer because this requires oxygen.   There had to be a balance between the production of Oxygen by the photolysis of water by solar radiation and the shielding from radiation by the resulting ozone. 


This means there was oxygen on early earth - either that or no radiation - yet most chemical evolution models require solar radiation!


to be continued




Bump - some of the above I will incorporate in my new thread - but feel free to post on them here.

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8 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2014 - 7:23AM #150
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

You all - how many of you still here origin of life scenarios that quote Miller's experiment or similar scenarios with amino acid synthesis as evidence for the origin of life?


Those of you who have, have the sources stated the actual chemical reaction product proportions and noted that most of the reaction products are either useless to life, or even destructive of molecules precursor to (preceding) life?


Since HCN (hydrogen cyanide {poisonous, btw}) is usually touted as a starter molecule, as is water (H2O) - how many of these sources show that HCN + H2O yields primarily formic acid?


And how many of these sources that tout water as necessary for the origin of life actually tell you that water destroys many molecules required for the creation/synthesis of life by means of the process called hydrolysis?

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