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2 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 11:12AM #111
Kemmer
Posts: 15,784

Ed & Knowsnothing - Yes, predation is ugly - we agree on that.



Unless you are a strict vegan, you have no right to say that.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 2:05AM #112
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 9, 2012 -- 1:18AM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed & Knowsnothing - Yes, predation is ugly - we agree on that. 


I am too tired for an in depth post now



Then don't.....don't give an in depth post. Just give a simple one.


Sometimes the simplest answers can be the best ones.


Mar 9, 2012 -- 1:18AM, Newtonian wrote:


- I have done so in the past and clearly we disagree.



No....what you did was give your viewpoints in the various pages of this thread....and then in post #81 on page 9, I made some valid points that refuted your point of view...and then in post #82, you made an off the wall statement about me still beating a dead Bombardier beetle...and I told you that I didn't know what you were talking about, however, you just ignored me.


Additonally in post #82, you employed circular reasoning by saying that the evidence that I presented was wrong....simply because it was out of harmony with your interpretation of what is said in Genesis.


And from there, in my post #90, I requested that you go back and carefully read my post #79 and then come back and tell me if I should believe what you're telling me...or should I believe my lying eyes.


However, you chose not to answer my question.


Therefore, disagreeing is one thing....but ignoring someone's evidence and choosing not to reply to it is another. 


Mar 9, 2012 -- 1:18AM, Newtonian wrote:


It boils down to Satan being the ruler of this world/system of things (NW).   And Jehovah is the Creator.


If you do not recognize both - and it seems you don't - then you will attribute all that is in this system of things to God as the Creator and nothing in this system of things to Satan.


(red bold mine)


Now you are going to an extreme and resorting to Bifurcation...also known as Black-and-White Fallacy, also known as Either/Or Fallacy....also known as the Fallacy of False Alternatives.


Mar 9, 2012 -- 1:18AM, Newtonian wrote:


Jehovah's Witnesses believe Satan is the super-human ruler of this world - with very great powres and abilities - and we are not ignorant of Satan's designs.


So, while one must go very deep into scientific research to determine how certain traits were bred into current predators...



Now you are resorting to the logical fallacy of begging the question by assuming that 'one must go very deep into scientific research to determine how certain traits were bred into current predators'...even though I have demonstrated to you that empirical evidence proves that Satan could not have possibly created, effected, or in-bred certain complex anatomical features in certain animals....simply because these features are too complex. And we're not talking about superficial features such as color or size, etc...but we are talking about complex organs and body mechanisms....such as silk glands in spiders and the unique organs and physical features of snakes that are suited specifically for predation.......which you keep repeatedly ignoring and burying under your religious rhetoric. Although burying something is sometimes the easiest way to put something out of sight and out of mind.


Also, the 'having to go very deep into scientific research' conveniently provides a way out for you, Newtonian.


Mar 9, 2012 -- 1:18AM, Newtonian wrote:

 


- it is very simple to consider what God created and what he did not create.


It boils down to the fact that God is love - 1 John 4:8.



So you're saying that God didn't create silk glands in spiders or the "wonderfully designed sensory system in snakes that helps them hunt"? Or even the fangs of a snakes...such as in the viper? Or how about the powerful coiling muscles in constrictor snakes or the expandable jaws in all snakes? Does Satan how the ability to create those features in snakes and spiders?


science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/...


Also, are you saying that in JWs' new system, animals will no longer feel grief and pain from the deaths of their mates or long time companions? ....Although apparently, it's easier for you to just ignore Knowsnothing's question about this.


Mar 9, 2012 -- 1:18AM, Newtonian wrote:


Satan loves people thinking God is the king of pain, as in the song by Police.


Jehovah's Witnesses know better!


Scoff or ridicule or whatever - but thankfully we know Jehovah and that is the strongest evidence as to who is behind the suffering in this world - the suffering all creation is subject to:


(Romans 8:22) . . .For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.


Jehovah did not purpose or create this groaning of all creation and being in pain - this has all the fingerprints of Satan's hand!




Well, the facts that I mentioned above....which you keep repeatedly ignoring....demonstrates that Satan does not have the ability to create the predatorial anatomical features that exist in certain animals.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 2:43AM #113
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Also, I just thought of something.


Isaiah 65:25a(NWT) says:


“The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust.


Therefore, I have two questions about this scripture...for anyone who would like to answer.


1)If these prophecies are literal, then why isn't verse 25a consistent since it uses symbolic language for the serpent?


2)Since serpents won't be literally eat dust in the new system, what will serpents probably eat?


And please, don't give me any non-answers.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 3:23AM #114
Faith_on_the_March
Posts: 39

Mar 10, 2012 -- 2:43AM, Ed2 wrote:


Also, I just thought of something.


Isaiah 65:25a(NWT) says:


“The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust.


Therefore, I have two questions about this scripture...for anyone who would like to answer.


1)If these prophecies are literal, then why isn't verse 25a consistent since it uses symbolic language for the serpent?


2)Since serpents won't be literally eat dust in the new system, what will serpents probably eat?


And please, don't give me any non-answers.



I'm sorry, I've only caught bits and pieces of this discussion, so I might be repeating thoughts already expressed.


The verse is largely symbolic, though we can derrive tangible ideas from it. Symbolically, it reiterates Satan's defeat in stating that the serpent will consume dust. If one were to try and visualize that literally, eating dust probably refers to a role more similar to the dung beetle. It will probably be some function in keeping the ecosystem balanced and healthy.


Take Care,


AK


 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 12:38PM #115
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 10, 2012 -- 3:23AM, Faith_on_the_March wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 2:43AM, Ed2 wrote:


Also, I just thought of something.


Isaiah 65:25a(NWT) says:


“The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust.


Therefore, I have two questions about this scripture...for anyone who would like to answer.


1)If these prophecies are literal, then why isn't verse 25a consistent since it uses symbolic language for the serpent?


2)Since serpents won't be literally eat dust in the new system, what will serpents probably eat?


And please, don't give me any non-answers.



I'm sorry, I've only caught bits and pieces of this discussion, so I might be repeating thoughts already expressed.


The verse is largely symbolic, though we can derrive tangible ideas from it. Symbolically, it reiterates Satan's defeat in stating that the serpent will consume dust. . .



Well, finally. A JW who believes that the prophecies in Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65, etc., are symbolic and are not literal.


Also, FOTM, do you have a guess as to what serpents will eat in the new system?

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 7:35AM #116
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

I just got a thought from a post in another thread:


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4... (post #16)


and was wondering if JWs credit God with the creation of the anteater and the aardvark since these creature create violence in the animal world by killing and consuming insects such as ants and termites...or if they credit Satan with manipulating the DNA of these creatures and turning them into carnivores(insectivores).


Insectivores are carnivorous mammals that survive by eating almost nothing but small insects. Insectivores include bats, frogs, lizards and anteaters.


animals.howstuffworks.com/mammals/insect... 




Can you imagine eating nothing but ants all day long? Giant anteaters have no teeth but a specialized tongue that allows them to eat up to 30,000 ants and termites each day. These animals are perfectly designed to feed on these little critters, which is great because ants are a very reliable food source. The anteater's narrow tongue is about 2 feet (60 centimeters) long and looks like a strand of spaghetti with teeny, backward-pointing spines that are covered in sticky saliva when the animal is feeding. This long tongue darts inside an ant mound up to 150 times per minute, picking up the worker ants. The anteater will only feed at one mound for about a minute before moving on. After all, the animal doesn't want to totally wipe out its source of food! Anteaters may also eat fallen fruit and soft grubs.


www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-anteat... 




Food Habits



Aardvarks eat at night and are myrmecophagous, i.e. they specialize on ants and termites, with the majority of their diet being ants. They dig rapidly into the sides or center of ant and termite nests or mounds, while feeding at the same time. The ants and termites are swept into their small mouth with their long, sticky tongue. Aardvarks swallow without chewing their food, or after chewing their food very little. The insects are digested in the pyloric region of the muscular, gizzard-like stomach. Some of the predator defenses that ants and termites use against myrmecophagous animals, such as pangolins, anteaters, and echidnas, include biting, stinging, chemical defenses, and building hard mounds. These defenses do not seem to affect aardvarks. Colonies of ants and termites are rarely destroyed after an aardvark feeds and can be built back up and reestablished. (Kingdon, 1997; Knöthig, 2005; Mutlow and Mutlow, 2008; Taylor and Skinner, 2003; Taylor, et al., 2002)



animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/acco... 



Although to me, it looks like the aardvark and the anteater were specifically designed to be the way that they are.


 

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 10:02AM #117
Newtonian
Posts: 11,343

Mar 10, 2012 -- 12:38PM, Ed2 wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 3:23AM, Faith_on_the_March wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 2:43AM, Ed2 wrote:


Also, I just thought of something.


Isaiah 65:25a(NWT) says:


“The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust.


Therefore, I have two questions about this scripture...for anyone who would like to answer.


1)If these prophecies are literal, then why isn't verse 25a consistent since it uses symbolic language for the serpent?


2)Since serpents won't be literally eat dust in the new system, what will serpents probably eat?


And please, don't give me any non-answers.



I'm sorry, I've only caught bits and pieces of this discussion, so I might be repeating thoughts already expressed.


The verse is largely symbolic, though we can derrive tangible ideas from it. Symbolically, it reiterates Satan's defeat in stating that the serpent will consume dust. . .



Well, finally. A JW who believes that the prophecies in Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65, etc., are symbolic and are not literal.


Also, FOTM, do you have a guess as to what serpents will eat in the new system?




 


Faith on the March did not say they were not literal - Jehovah's Witnesses believe these prophecies have both symbolic and literal application.   See our literature on this.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 10:14AM #118
Newtonian
Posts: 11,343

Ed2 - Ok, which is it - do you want a lengthy answer covering all the anatomical details you posted on - or a simple answer which I gave?   You can't have it both ways!


I was responding briefly - I will now respond to one of your examples - since I am sick today, I can respond to others - please specify which have priority for you.


Spiders silk.   As an animal lover I have observed both the predatory (which I try to stop) and peaceful behavior of various spiders.   In the case of silk, I have noted two important peaceful functions.   Just yesterday we had fog here in SE Louisiana - fog and mist were likely a major if not exclusive means of watering on the pre-flood earth.   And we had literally thousands of spider webs spring up overnight.   They were not filled with caught insects!   They collected the dew!


In fact, they were covered with dew on every strand!   As a means for collecting water these webs were extremely efficient.


Also, spiders don't fly.   But they might as well fly!   They use their silk to dangle from high tree branches - going up and down the strand as they wish, and the breeze carries them quite a distance - much like flying!   Another peaceful use of spider silk. 


One should not fault the designer if his designs are used for a violent end - that is as much true for Jehovah and spider silk as it is for Vector and their super sharp knives!   Both were designed for a peaceful use.


Try to pick examples I might have experience in observing - I have plenty of experience with spiders and mosquitoes, for example.  

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 10:43AM #119
Newtonian
Posts: 11,343

Ed - I have no experience with the aardvark or anteater - armadillos eat ants here is SE Louisiana.


Were there aardvarks and anteaters on the ark - or did they re-evolve after the flood?


news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/26763...


Excerpt;


"The aardvark, which feeds on ants and termites, is something of a genetic oddity.


It looks nothing like an elephant but has been lumped in with jumbo and co when it comes to its genetic make-up.


.... (evolution speculations)


Six animals - the aardvark, elephant, hyrax, manatee, elephant shrew and golden mole - belong to the group, on the basis of their genetic sequences."


Our Bible dictionary considers perhaps only 127 kinds from the many thousands of current species were on the ark.


Are all these animals carnivores?   I don't think so.  I am not saying all 6 animals came from one kind on the ark - but I am questioning whether there were Aardvarks and anteaters on the ark.


I assume nothing here.  But this is relevant for an accurate answer.


Assuming a larger number of animals, and hence 3 or all 6 of this genetic family were on the ark, of course, their diet would have been vegetarian - perhaps plucking ant size seeds from within mounds of collected seeds from seed collecting animals.


Remember, Peking man was not on the ark - but the Vedda have descended from humans that were not of this variety.   And the Vedda (of Sri Lanka) have a similar skull structure to Peking Man - i.e. varieties have re-emerged from the collected gene pool of animals and man on the ark.


One must first identify whether all 6 animals are of one Biblical kind, or 3 kinds, or 6 kinds.   That involves genetic studies, along with studies of newly discovered mechanisms for rapid micro-evolution.  


For example, tandem repeat sequences which operate 100,000 times faster than point mutations.


Please note that both point mutations and tandem repeat sequences are not originating anything new - they are random changes on an informational template - thus they are not totally random but are designed to, among other things, allow for survival of the species.   What will emerge under peaceful conditions by such mechanisms is quite different from what will emerge in a violent environment - as per survival of the fittest. 


Sadly, violence breeds violence.  


The good news of God's Kingdom includes the fact that all forms of violence will be done away with - and then all animals will evolve under peaceful conditions bringing an almost endless variety of wonderful plants and animals, none of which will cause any harm:


(Isaiah


11:6-9) . . .And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.



 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 10:57AM #120
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Mar 17, 2012 -- 10:43AM, Newtonian wrote:


The good news of God's Kingdom includes the fact that all forms of violence will be done away with - and then all animals will evolve under peaceful conditions bringing an almost endless variety of wonderful plants and animals, none of which will cause any harm:


(Isaiah


11:6-9) . . .And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.




it-2p.257Lion


***


At the time the Israelites returned to their homeland in 537 B.C.E., Jehovah evidently protected them from lions and other rapacious beasts along the way. (Isa 35:8-10) In the land itself lions and other predators doubtless had increased during the 70 years of its desolation. (Compare Ex 23:29.) But, evidently because of Jehovah’s watch care over his people, the Israelites and their domestic animals apparently did not fall prey to lions as had the foreign peoples whom the king of Assyria settled in the cities of Samaria. (2Ki 17:25, 26) Therefore, from the standpoint of the Israelites, the lion was, in effect, eating straw like a bull, that is, doing no harm to them or their domestic animals. (Isa 65:18, 19, 25) Under Messiah’s rulership, however, there comes to be a greater fulfillment of the restoration prophecies. Persons who may at one time have been of a beastly, animalistic, vicious disposition come to be at peace with more docile fellow humans and do not seek to do them harm or injury. Both in a literal and a figurative sense, peace will come to exist between lions and domestic animals.—Isa 11:1-6; see BEASTS, SYMBOLIC.


Compare to this ScientificAmerican article.


Unlike dogs and other omnivores, cats are true (so-called “obligate”) carnivores: They meet their nutritional needs by consuming other animals and have a higher protein requirement than many other mammals. Cats get certain key nutrients from meat—including taurine, arachidonic acid, vitamin A and vitamin B12—that can’t be sufficiently obtained from plant-based foods. Without a steady supply of these nutrients, cats can suffer from liver and heart problems, not to mention skin irritation and hearing loss.


As such, a cat’s ideal diet is made up mainly of protein and fats derived from small prey such as rodents, birds and small reptiles and amphibians. Some cats munch on grass or other plants, but most biologists agree that such roughage serves only as a digestive aid and provides limited if any nutritional value.

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