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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 12:29AM #71
whatson2nd
Posts: 2,936

Feb 13, 2012 -- 9:11AM, bigbear6161 wrote:

Who was the Jesus of history and how does he differ from the Christ of faith? Can we get to him with historical analysis. Does the Historical Jesus matter? Was there an Historical Jesus? Was he purely a literary figure? A pure mythological figure? A revolutionary general? An Essene? A Pharisee? A Cynic? A long haired hippy freak? Pure spirit only appearing to be material? Who was this guy around which Christianity spins like vortex?




All we have is literature and the idea that we can read the gospels as if Jesus is historical by those that assume Jesus is historical, but that's circular. We can't know of any actual history because all we have is a story, a tall tale of mystical and supernatural elements that Christian theology rests upon. Christianity appears to revolve about the gospel story itself because of its religious appeal. Why people are determined that Jesus is historical and that the story necessarily explains Christian origins is puzzling.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 12:41AM #72
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Indeed, by that logic-Hercules/Heracules was real, and did indeed do those 12 great deeds, including slaying the hydra and holding the sky upon his shoulders to give poor atlus a rest.... all because some book says it did happen.


Hercules is just as real as Jesus, just more interesting and better looking... and the Greeks never denied that the god (Zeus/Jupiter) fornicated with his mother.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 12:56AM #73
whatson2nd
Posts: 2,936

Feb 13, 2012 -- 6:58PM, G.flower wrote:


Feb 13, 2012 -- 9:44AM, dio wrote:


We really don't know much, he was killed because some people thought he might be the messiah. What did he teach, I've gleened from the Gospels, he taught be compassionate,  purify your thinking, love each other, do no evil, do good, follow his example, find divinity within and without.




No, he was killed because of the time that he entered Jeruselem. It was Passover and the Romans beefed up their cohorts and were ready to squash any trouble and trouble makers at a moments notice. They didn't want to have to deal with riots or a war.


Unfortunately, Jesus would have been viewed by the Romans as one of the troublemakers and he (although there is no evidence of him) was quickly killed, most likely without all the rigamarole that is in the bible. That was the Roman way.




You are attempting to take a tall tale and turn it into something else. Why? Why the need to reinvent  a story in order to make it go down easy, so that it can be believed to be an actual event? It didn't happen the way it was written because the writing is fiction, rigamarole, and so you seem to have a need to suggest a way for it to have actually taken place. Why? Why can't the story remain as the fiction that it appears to be?

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 1:11AM #74
whatson2nd
Posts: 2,936

Feb 14, 2012 -- 9:42AM, Kwinters wrote:


Feb 13, 2012 -- 6:58PM, G.flower wrote:


Feb 13, 2012 -- 9:44AM, dio wrote:


We really don't know much, he was killed because some people thought he might be the messiah. What did he teach, I've gleened from the Gospels, he taught be compassionate,  purify your thinking, love each other, do no evil, do good, follow his example, find divinity within and without.




No, he was killed because of the time that he entered Jeruselem. It was Passover and the Romans beefed up their cohorts and were ready to squash any trouble and trouble makers at a moments notice. They didn't want to have to deal with riots or a war.


Unfortunately, Jesus would have been viewed by the Romans as one of the troublemakers and he (although there is no evidence of him) was quickly killed, most likely without all the rigamarole that is in the bible. That was the Roman way.




+10





All G.flower has done is provide a hypothetical scenario perhaps for the purpose of allowing a fictional account to be reinvented into a nonfictional account so as to formulate a belief that what is being read is actual history. You give that exercise in self deception a + 10. Interesting.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 1:26AM #75
whatson2nd
Posts: 2,936

Feb 16, 2012 -- 12:41AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Indeed, by that logic-Hercules/Heracules was real, and did indeed do those 12 great deeds, including slaying the hydra and holding the sky upon his shoulders to give poor atlus a rest.... all because some book says it did happen.


Hercules is just as real as Jesus, just more interesting and better looking... and the Greeks never denied that the god (Zeus/Jupiter) fornicated with his mother.





Yes, we could read stories of Hercules and Zues and replace the improbable with hypothetical scenerious in order to make them appear historical. Why not? If it can be applied to Jesus it can be applied to any figure found in literature.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 7:18AM #76
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Feb 16, 2012 -- 1:11AM, whatson2nd wrote:


All G.flower has done is provide a hypothetical scenario perhaps for the purpose of allowing a fictional account to be reinvented into a nonfictional account so as to formulate a belief that what is being read is actual history. You give that exercise in self deception a + 10. Interesting.



While I can understand your point concerning the historical accuracy of Jesus ever really living at all, I find it much easier to imagine that Jesus might have actually lived and considered himself a messiah, but was executed before he could carry out the things required of a messiah under Jewish law. The rest of it is of the same caliber of the old dime novels such as those written about old heroes of the wild west, or Washington and the cherry tree. The embellishments were meant to inspire, and they have succeeded in that, but just like all of the other heroic sagas, lies were built up on the backs of truths, and  over time, if a lie is repeated often enough, it becomes a truth by default.

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 7:33AM #77
G.flower
Posts: 3,194

Feb 16, 2012 -- 12:56AM, whatson2nd wrote:


Feb 13, 2012 -- 6:58PM, G.flower wrote:


Feb 13, 2012 -- 9:44AM, dio wrote:


We really don't know much, he was killed because some people thought he might be the messiah. What did he teach, I've gleened from the Gospels, he taught be compassionate,  purify your thinking, love each other, do no evil, do good, follow his example, find divinity within and without.




No, he was killed because of the time that he entered Jeruselem. It was Passover and the Romans beefed up their cohorts and were ready to squash any trouble and trouble makers at a moments notice. They didn't want to have to deal with riots or a war.


Unfortunately, Jesus would have been viewed by the Romans as one of the troublemakers and he (although there is no evidence of him) was quickly killed, most likely without all the rigamarole that is in the bible. That was the Roman way.




You are attempting to take a tall tale and turn it into something else. Why? Why the need to reinvent  a story in order to make it go down easy, so that it can be believed to be an actual event? It didn't happen the way it was written because the writing is fiction, rigamarole, and so you seem to have a need to suggest a way for it to have actually taken place. Why? Why can't the story remain as the fiction that it appears to be?




Hello? All I was giving was the likeliest scenario based upon historical accounts of from that place and era. This thread is named "Historical Jesus."

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 7:45AM #78
G.flower
Posts: 3,194

Feb 16, 2012 -- 1:26AM, whatson2nd wrote:


Feb 16, 2012 -- 12:41AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


Indeed, by that logic-Hercules/Heracules was real, and did indeed do those 12 great deeds, including slaying the hydra and holding the sky upon his shoulders to give poor atlus a rest.... all because some book says it did happen.


Hercules is just as real as Jesus, just more interesting and better looking... and the Greeks never denied that the god (Zeus/Jupiter) fornicated with his mother.





Yes, we could read stories of Hercules and Zues and replace the improbable with hypothetical scenerious in order to make them appear historical. Why not? If it can be applied to Jesus it can be applied to any figure found in literature.




...and if the thread was named Historical Hercules and Zues we might be doing that. It isn't so much that anyone needs to "make them appear historical," it is that they are mythic figures about whom stories were told, sometimes incorporating historical facts (as they are currently accepted). Comparing what is in the myth with what is known from the time period is a good point for discussion IMO. 


Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 8:29AM #79
Dostojevsky
Posts: 6,815

Heretic, yes your vending machine is a nice story.


Both you and the other party have learned something from each other.


This 'believe in Jesus and you shall be saved' is a short version of the message.


You will never catch a plane to Paris unless you really believe that Paris exists.


(Faith - a 'substance' of things not seen...)


Once you acknowledge that Paris exists, you pay the provider to get you there,  prepare for the journey, make sure you have proper clothing - is it winter is it summer. Jesus spoke of white garments. it is all provided, Paris is waiting but there are things you must do  to get there.


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2 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 8:33AM #80
Rgurley4
Posts: 7,935

Historical Jesus...


...Was there an Historical Jesus?...


If anyone does not have spiritual discernment,  they will not understand the spirit-breathed and spirit-superintended HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS based on
ancient writings and oral traditions that introduce and explain the historical Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Messiah, The God-Man.


The PRIMARY HISTORICAL DOCUMENT is the Bible.
Secondary ancient documents through more modern studies attempt to spiritually explain and interpret and "canonize" God's revelation to Man.


CONSERVATIVE VIEW:
The Bible (Scripture) is the supreme authority when compared to other writings  and precepts, based systematic study of Scripture.
All of the ACTUAL WORDS therein were "Spirit Inspired", and "superintended" by God.
The many authors and their scribes recorded these words in "original manuscripts" which were without error.
The Bible as a piece of literature is withhout peer, and it has been miraculously written, preserved, translated, distributed, studied...and BELIEVED!


If you don't have FAITH / BELIEF in the HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS, you will never experience the "Historical Jesus".

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