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Switch to Forum Live View Two Choices: Christian or Magician
3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:17AM #101
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:13AM, Adelphe wrote:


Feb 8, 2012 -- 12:29PM, koolpoi wrote:


"Taking every thought captive" sounds disturbingly similar to CCP ideology.




Do you find Jesus disturbing?


If so, good.  You're supposed to.




The point is quite accurate, especially if you ever read Mao's Little Red Book, I'm betting you haven't (adelphe).


In the CCP, it was as though Mao ZeDong were their god... in which case he mixed your claimed 2 alternatives into one.  


Oh, he didn't use magic like jesus though, jesus was the ultimate magician according to the bible.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:21AM #102
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

Feb 8, 2012 -- 4:24PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Feb 8, 2012 -- 8:41AM, Adelphe wrote:


Looking something up, I came across this glossary--and started reading.

Under the entry for "magic" we find:

Magic. The "great" Science. According to Deveria and other Orientalists, "Magic was considered as a sacred science inseparable from religion" by the oldest and most civilised and learned nations. The Egyptians, for instance, were a most sincerely religious nation, as were, and are still, the Hindus. "Magic consists of, and is acquired by, the worship of the gods," says Plato. Could, then, a nation which, owing to the irrefragable evidence of inscriptions and papyri, is proved to have firmly believed in magic for thousands of years, have been deceived for so long a time? And is it likely that generations upon generations of a learned and pious hierarchy, many among whom led lives of self-martyrdom, holiness and asceticism, would have gone on deceiving themselves and the people (or even only the latter) for the pleasure of perpetuating belief in "miracles"? Fanatics, we are told, will do anything to enforce belief in their god or idols. To this we reply: — In such cases Brahmans and Egyptian Rekhget-amens or Hierophants, would not have popularised the belief in the power of man by magic practices, to command the services of the gods: which gods are in truth but the occult powers or potencies of Nature, personified by the learned priests themselves, who reverenced only in them the attributes of the one unknown and nameless Principle. As Proclus, the Platonist, ably puts it: "Ancient priests, when they considered that there is a certain alliance and sympathy in natural things to each other, and of things manifest to occult powers, and discovered that all things subsist in all, fabricated a sacred science from this mutual sympathy and similarity. . . . and applied for occult purposes both celestial and terrene natures, by means of which, through a certain similitude, they deduced divine natures into this inferior abode." Magic is the science of communicating with, and directing supernal supramundane potencies, as well as commanding those of lower spheres; a practical knowledge of the hidden mysteries of nature which are known only to the few, because they are so difficult to acquire without falling into sin against the law. Ancient and mediaeval mystics divided magic into three classes — Theurgia, Goetia and Natural Magic. "Theurgia has long since been appropriated as the peculiar sphere of the Theosophists and metaphysicians," says Kenneth Mackenzie. "Goetia is black magic, and 'natural' or white magic has risen with healing in its wings to the proud position of an exact and progressive study." The remarks added by our late learned brother are remarkable: "The realistic desires of modern times have contributed to bring magic into disrepute and ridicule. . . . Faith (in one's own self) is an essential element in magic, and existed long before other ideas which presume its pre-existence. It is said that it takes a wise man to make a fool; and a man's idea must be exalted almost to madness, i. e., his brain susceptibilities must be increased far beyond the low miserable status of modern civilisation, before he can become a true magician, for a pursuit of this science implies a certain amount of isolation and an abnegation of self." A very great isolation certainly, the achievement of which constitutes a wonderful phenomenon, a miracle in itself. Withal, magic is not something supernatural. As explained by Iamblichus, "they, through the sacerdotal theurgy, announce that they are able to ascend to more elevated and universal essences, and to those that are established above fate, viz., to god and the demiurgos: neither employing matter, nor assuming any other things besides, except the observation of a sensible time." Already some are beginning to recognise the existence of subtle powers and influences in nature, in which they have hitherto known nought. But, as Dr. Carter Blake truly remarks, "the nineteenth century is not that which has observed the genesis of new, nor the completion of old, methods of thought"; to which Mr. Bonwick adds, that "if the Ancients knew but little of our mode of investigation into the secrets of Nature, we know still less of their mode of research."




Now the glossary was helpful because it was obviously written by those who have a keen understanding of--and systematic approach to--what is referred to in Scripture as the "world's" systems, iow, anything which operates outside of the following parameters:

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" (2 Cor 10)

and

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." (2 Col)

So you see Christianity has a very specific worldview.  A worldview which would be incompatible in its totality with the world's opinions on and answers to the following:

1.  What is the True and Universal reality? (Ontology)
2.  How can we find this True and Universal reality? (Epistemology)
3.  What are the Universal concepts between Mind and Reality ? (Metaphysics)
4.  How do we apply Universal truth to further Humanity? (Moral Epistemology, Religion)
5.  What does Science allow, or deny, within True and Universal Reality? (Metaphysics)

(Each and every one of us has opinions on and answers to the above, whether or not you've actually thought about it and can state them by their name and definition within philosophy which includes political positions, outlooks, and approaches, etc.  Your particular positions do, in fact, have designated names within philosophical categories whether or not you happen to know the names by which those concepts are called and defined.)

Anyway, back to the glossary.  Oftentimes I stumble across the most confused garbage when it comes to the concepts listed within it and this is one of the first times I have seen them laid out methodically and with some measure of logic and consistency.  There are some people who confusedly dabble in this stuff and then there are some who really get it, like here.

In reading the above definition of magic, we see:

"Faith (in one's own self) is an essential element in magic"

Well now that says it all, doesn't it?  How does it feel to be the superstitious one; no better or different from an ancient pagan prophet peddling your primeval religion?  And a fanatical one, at that?  "Fanatics, we are told, will do anything to enforce belief in their god or idols."

As eloquent as the entry above is, don't let the "religious" sounding phrases obscure the fact that this is describing the modern mind.  In a nutshell, all it's saying is God is off the throne (or dead), and Man Is King.  When that happens, man is nothing more than a practicing magician.  A goofy wizard.





This is only an issue if you are an ignorant ideologue who buys into the current fad understanding of Christianity, rather than the actual one.


These fads get tired and boring. Try digging deeper.


 




Do tell--what is "the actual one" and how do you know?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:29AM #103
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

Feb 9, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


*sigh*


No, it is just the same old song and dance to attempt to deny that Christianity is an occult religion as all religions are.  Just to say that one believes in God is to acknowledge the supernatural--the unseen (referred to in scripture)--the powers of the universe.  The Bible is full of references to the ancient occult practices.  I won't bother with all the ones in the OT: columns of fire, manna from heaven, the battle of Jericho, a talking ass.  Yes, Jesus was said to have turned the water into wine, to walk on water, to calm the storm.  He told us that we could move mountains, just say to the mountain to move from here to there and it would be moved.  He healed  and cast out demons and we call those miracles and even though himself and the scriptures speak of others doing this, Christians pretend now that only Christ healed.  The older strains of Christianity, however, remember differently and still believe in miracles.  He promised that after he was with his Father we could do even more than he could after he sends the "Companion" to us.


Trying to make a distinction between magic and Christianity by saying that magic is belief that the self --the human SELF--can do something supernatural?  That is logically impossible!  No person, no human "self" can perform anything at all without the supernatural.  But through faith, an act of spiritual belief in an occult power, in our case the Spirit of God, we hope.  Not even Jesus appears to have healed without the power of the Holy Spirit as we see in the Gospels.  We should know that.  This is why Paul teaches the difference between the "natural man" and the "spiritual man" and that humility is our greatest strength, all honor and glory be to God. 


Go study shamanic practices, study the old religions with their netherworlds and upperworlds, the priests and priestesses who healed and the sorcerers that went both above and below and fought the demons and monsters of the lower/netherworlds to protect their communities from disease and defeat, famine, drought and flood and those who went to the upperworlds, the heavens, to gain the benevolent assistance of the gods.  The Old Men, Old Women, Medicine men and healers of all kinds who by calling upon the gods and spirits of their traditions protected and saved their people.  They returned and taught the people the moral teachings that would protect them from the spiritual forces all around them.  Typically, while in the trance state, they would meet with the spirit of a great spiritual predecessor, a great medicine man, or shaman, who would assist them in the spiritual realm.  It sounds an awful lot like that promise Jesus made about the Companion after he was gone!  *Trying to boil five or six books into a single paragraph isn't easy.*


Knowing that, you would recognize it when Paul perfectly describes the sorcerers art when he tells you how, in his passages on spiritual warfare.  He is speaking of pure shamanic type practice that is purely done by prayer with an awareness of the spiritual because he is speaking of actually acting on the spiritual powers and not just reacting to what they do (most of scripture appears to be reacting to it and not exhibiting any control over it, which is a very telling distinction and Paul's passage actually does point to the beliefs typical of shamanic religions).  But somehow, despite the clear words that are written in those passages referring to the cosmic forces, princes and potentates of the universe, etc.,  the Fundamentalists try to twist it to be against human foes, flatly denied in the passages, and the rest of us read over those passages with glazed eyes. 


Those who have referenced the mystical elements of the Holy Communion, the body and blood of Christ, are not deceived by fear.  Most should recognize the acknowledgement of the Communion of Saints--all who have ever belonged to Christ, all who live in him both living and who have passed on, who also share in the Holy Communion, the same feast, the one and only, the SAME cup, the SAME loaf, a singular act for all time and for all the faithful.  This is also referenced by Paul and the words of Christ he quotes.  This we do in remembrance of him. 


And so you preach that God became man and yet you deny that there is some mystical and supernatural component to what you consider to be your religion?!  It is impossible!  If you don't want the mystical and the supernatural, get your nose out of the Bible.  Our faith is not an insurance policy for the afterlife--it is, like all religions, for the living, just as Christ did teach.  And by his blood we are cleansed.  Don't you recognize it?  You want healing without the supernatural? 


I am somewhat amused by all of this.  It really makes me wonder what it is you fear?  Do you fear when you pray?  Who is it you are praying to?  Where is he?  What do you expect, hope for? What do you pray for?  Does anything happen?  Why not?!  Maybe it is because you have confused your God with your self.  Your self can't do anything (the Bible says so).




?


1 Sam 21:15...

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:35AM #104
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

Feb 12, 2012 -- 9:46AM, johnacancienne wrote:


I'm not sure where Addy comes up with this stuff... She never posts her sources



?


It's right in the OP, dear.


...Prayer summons up spiritual energy to create change in the natural realm... The same for casting a spell. Both can be used for good, and both can be used to curse. ...




Do you honestly think Christian prayer can be used to curse? 


Think again.


btw, why would you do (or want to do) such a thing?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:40AM #105
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:15AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


That's all fine, if you ignore all the other gods, many of which make more sense, and thus are superior to jesus.  The deist god for example, actually WORKS with science and reason.  But don't feel bad, it's the same mistake (only 2 choices) that Pascal made in his wager, which turned out to be false logically.




In Christianity, of course, there aren't any other gods--there are idols, sure, and other forces.  No other Deity, however.

Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:17AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


The point is quite accurate, especially if you ever read Mao's Little Red Book, I'm betting you haven't (adelphe).


In the CCP, it was as though Mao ZeDong were their god... in which case he mixed your claimed 2 alternatives into one.  


Oh, he didn't use magic like jesus though, jesus was the ultimate magician according to the bible.




Does Jesus scare you?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:41AM #106
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:29AM, Adelphe wrote:


1 Sam 21:15...



Such a typical Fundy Christian response..... And one that breaks the RoC about posting from another source without using your own words to show what you mean by it.


Just what is this lonely scripture supposed to represent, Addy? That you can look up random verses in the bible?!

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 10:55AM #107
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:40AM, Adelphe wrote:


Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:15AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


That's all fine, if you ignore all the other gods, many of which make more sense, and thus are superior to jesus.  The deist god for example, actually WORKS with science and reason.  But don't feel bad, it's the same mistake (only 2 choices) that Pascal made in his wager, which turned out to be false logically.




In Christianity, of course, there aren't any other gods--there are idols, sure, and other forces.  No other Deity, however.



Which is fine, but you posed these things (jesus vs. magic) as the only 2 alternatives, and I pointed out the fallacious reasoning.  And even in the bubble of christianity-if "magic" is worthy of mention, and you consider it false-you need to be consistent and involve ALL the other "false" ideas out there.  So my issue with you is one of "inconsistency".   Either you just say "JESUS" and ignore everything else, or you acknowledge ALL the "false" choices, not just one.  

Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:17AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:


The point is quite accurate, especially if you ever read Mao's Little Red Book, I'm betting you haven't (adelphe).


In the CCP, it was as though Mao ZeDong were their god... in which case he mixed your claimed 2 alternatives into one.  


Oh, he didn't use magic like jesus though, jesus was the ultimate magician according to the bible.




Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:40AM, Adelphe wrote:

Does Jesus scare you?







Jesus? no.  Mao?  Hell yes!!!  Mao was real and it would have been frightening to live in China in the 50s, 60s, or 70s.  Have you ever read about the Cultural Revolution?  NOW THAT IS SCARY!

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 11:03AM #108
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314



Feb 12, 2012 -- 9:46AM, johnacancienne wrote:


I'm not sure where Addy comes up with this stuff... She never posts her sources



Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:35AM, Adelphe wrote:

?


It's right in the OP, dear.



REALLY?! From a glossary? That's your source? What book? You can do better than this. Are you getting old and complacent?


Feb 12, 2012 -- 9:46AM, johnacancienne wrote:

Prayer summons up spiritual energy to create change in the natural realm... The same for casting a spell. Both can be used for good, and both can be used to curse. ...




Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:35AM, Adelphe wrote:

?Do you honestly think Christian prayer can be used to curse? 


Think again.



Are you telling me you've never heard the phrase "god damn you"? What do you assume this to mean? A blessing?


Feb 23, 2012 -- 10:35AM, Adelphe wrote:

?btw, why would you do (or want to do) such a thing?



Because sometimes people just plain need it. OK?


And the satisfaction it brings in delivering that to someone is phenomenal; better than an orgasm when released to the universe!Laughing

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 11:05AM #109
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

mmmm Universal Orgasm.



Killer concept John.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 11:57AM #110
bigbear6161
Posts: 4,030
Adelphe,
The point I'm making is that an historical resurrection would seem much more unbelievable interpretation than the modern worldview influenced approach of liberals, whom you imply believe in magic! I find that very ironic. Accuse us of being too scientific or too rationalist or too post-modern -that I could understand. But too magical? Go figure!
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