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Switch to Forum Live View Two Choices: Christian or Magician
2 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2012 - 5:48PM #21
tfvespasianus
Posts: 1,981

Feb 8, 2012 -- 5:06PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Feb 8, 2012 -- 4:36PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Feb 8, 2012 -- 4:10PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


... What Jesus taught was profound spiritual truth, and the truth is not dependent on a miracle to validate it...




Could you please name a truth that Jesus taught that was different and distinct from His contemporaries.




How about the idea that not only is murder wrong but the rage that might impel one toward murder is wrong (Matthew 5:21-22)? Most Christians interpret this as meaning that we are guilty merely for feeling anger, which is nonsense; I believe it means that we must not stew in anger but let go of it--because anger is one of the things that cloaks and supresses the light of God from within.


I am no expert in the teachings of the ancient world, but I have believed that this is a unique insight.





Actually, I have oft heard it mentioned that the 'antitheses' (i.e. you have heard it said X, but I tell you Y) are in line with a practice that was known as 'building a hedge (or fence) around the Torah'. That is, as there is surely a certain amount of room for interpretation and one wouldn't want to run afoul of the Law, so it might be a good idea to err on the side of caution (or so the thinking went). Thus, in the example under discussion, murder is a long way off if you are not angry with your brother in the first place. In any case, someone would a greater knowledge than I on the subject could probably confirm or deny this idea.



Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2012 - 6:01PM #22
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Feb 8, 2012 -- 5:06PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Feb 8, 2012 -- 4:36PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Feb 8, 2012 -- 4:10PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


... What Jesus taught was profound spiritual truth, and the truth is not dependent on a miracle to validate it...




Could you please name a truth that Jesus taught that was different and distinct from His contemporaries.




How about the idea that not only is murder wrong but the rage that might impel one toward murder is wrong (Matthew 5:21-22)? Most Christians interpret this as meaning that we are guilty merely for feeling anger, which is nonsense; I believe it means that we must not stew in anger but let go of it--because anger is one of the things that cloaks and supresses the light of God from within.


I am no expert in the teachings of the ancient world, but I have believed that this is a unique insight.





Babylonian Talmud, Bava Mezia 58b - One who shames the face of his fellow, it is as if he has murdered him.






Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 85b - Yom Kippur atones for all sins, but first you must reconcile your conflict with others.


Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2012 - 6:21PM #23
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Feb 8, 2012 -- 4:58PM, wohali wrote:


"Parrots sit on their branch and repeat what they've heard, and never leave that tree."


Methinks you have never seen a parrot in the wild.




Methinks you worked hard to miss the point.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2012 - 6:45PM #24
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,612

I don't think the issue is whether Jesus' teaching was unique or separate from his contemporaries. Clearly he said a lot of things found in the rabbinical tradition as well as the teachings of the cynics and other classical sages. Common lore accounts for a ridiculous percentage of Jesus' sayings as the Jesus Seminar has pointed out. The genius of Jesus is the same genius that informs most good religious and ethical teachings, and this arises from authentic spirituality grounded in tried and true spiritual practices. Now is this magic or just the fruit of a life connected to spirit? Heretic your point is well taken that violent actions begin as violent thoughts. This truth is one of many discovered by the practitioner. Jesus enunciated it as did Buddha.



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2 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2012 - 9:05PM #25
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Feb 8, 2012 -- 6:01PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Could you please name a truth that Jesus taught that was different and distinct from His contemporaries.




How about the idea that not only is murder wrong but the rage that might impel one toward murder is wrong (Matthew 5:21-22)? Most Christians interpret this as meaning that we are guilty merely for feeling anger, which is nonsense; I believe it means that we must not stew in anger but let go of it--because anger is one of the things that cloaks and supresses the light of God from within.


I am no expert in the teachings of the ancient world, but I have believed that this is a unique insight.





Babylonian Talmud, Bava Mezia 58b - One who shames the face of his fellow, it is as if he has murdered him.






Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 85b - Yom Kippur atones for all sins, but first you must reconcile your conflict with others.





I was not aware of the first of these Talmudic teachings. I am not sure how it corresponds to the teaching attributed to Jesus. Causing public shame to another person does not seem analogous to a private feeling of anger. I am familiar with the principle of reconciliation as prerequisite to Yom Kippur, and that seems more closely related to the teaching about anger, although I am honestly unsure whether the principle applies to hidden anger as well as to unresolved open hostility.


In any case, it doesn't really matter to me whether other people have said the same things. Maybe the very point is that spiritually enlightened people do come to see the same truths. That does not diminish their truth or their power.


I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2012 - 9:07PM #26
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Feb 8, 2012 -- 6:45PM, bigbear6161 wrote:


I don't think the issue is whether Jesus' teaching was unique or separate from his contemporaries. Clearly he said a lot of things found in the rabbinical tradition as well as the teachings of the cynics and other classical sages. Common lore accounts for a ridiculous percentage of Jesus' sayings as the Jesus Seminar has pointed out. The genius of Jesus is the same genius that informs most good religious and ethical teachings, and this arises from authentic spirituality grounded in tried and true spiritual practices. Now is this magic or just the fruit of a life connected to spirit? Heretic your point is well taken that violent actions begin as violent thoughts. This truth is one of many discovered by the practitioner. Jesus enunciated it as did Buddha.




Thank you, bigbear. You said what I wanted to, but much more eloquently than I did.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2012 - 9:11PM #27
koolpoi
Posts: 5,930

Feb 8, 2012 -- 12:47PM, jlb32168 wrote:


Feb 8, 2012 -- 12:29PM, koolpoi wrote:

"Taking every thought captive" sounds disturbingly similar to CCP ideology.


Nothing you’ve said sounds appreciably different from any other skeptic, koolpoi.  The same goes for Bob.  Do you simply parrot things you've heard other skeptics say?


You’d say we were rude were we to say that the Taoist “He, who knows, does not speak. He, who speaks, does not know” sounds disturbingly like the Khmer Rouge’s crusade against intellectualism, where those who spoke out were culled and simply disappeared.




I wouldn't say your comparison is rude but if you are serious,I would invite you to present my quote and yours to some intelligent friends (unaware of the the true source, of course) and ask them which sounds more like communist doctrine (CCP or Khmer Rouge).

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 09, 2012 - 12:03PM #28
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,612

I'm trying to figure out why the OP identifies things worldly with magic. If anything I'd think you'd identify things worldly with a secular pragmatism or rationalism. So why the identification with magic? Is it to demonize the opposition so to speak?

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 09, 2012 - 12:08PM #29
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,612

I'm thinking the dichotomy that works best might be naturalism v. supernaturalism. 

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 09, 2012 - 12:18PM #30
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Feb 9, 2012 -- 12:08PM, bigbear6161 wrote:


I'm thinking the dichotomy that works best might be naturalism v. supernaturalism. 




Or rationality versus dogmatism....


Science versus superstition....


Understanding versus fear....


Order versus chaos...


Civilization versus savagery...



In short, "God said, 'Let there be light, and there was light'" ...versus darkness.


I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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