Does the betrayal of Jesus by Judas make sense if Jesus had preached his divinity and Judas, as a follower, believed it?
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert
“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.
If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”
I have always thought that Judas was bitterly disappointed that Jesus was not, after all, the foretold messiah--that is, the messiah predicted in the Hebrew scriptures, not the very different messiah who would later be described in the Greek scriptures. The Hebrew scriptures messiah was to be human, not divine; a patrilineal blood descendent of the house of David, not the son of God with no human father; a champion who would free the Jews from oppression and usher in an era of peace and justice, not a savior from sin. There apparently were many messianic cults in that era, centered around someone who came to be regarded as fulfilling that messianic role. Judas' only sense of messiah would be that described in the Hebrew scriptures, and he may have initially been drawn to think of Jesus in that role by virtue of the astonishing wisdom in Jesus' spiritual teachings; but perhaps it soon became clear that Jesus was not going to lead a revolt against the Roman authorities, which meant he was not the expected messiah after all.
Obviously, this is all speculation. But I think it is at least a reasonable speculation.
I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasies and prejudices reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
Does the betrayal of Jesus by Judas make sense if Jesus had preached his divinity and Judas, as a follower, believed it?
Possibly, because per Luke, Judas' betrayal is the result of possession (Luke 22:3).
If one accepts this story as it stands, it would seem that Judas' will was something less than entirely his own.
Hmm, interesting. That was certainly an original idea that the author of Luke had.
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert
“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.
If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”
Does the betrayal of Jesus by Judas make sense if Jesus had preached his divinity and Judas, as a follower, believed it?
Satan, Adam and Eve, and even Cain knew who God was, and yet they betrayed anyway.So yes, it is very plausible that Judas Iscariot knew who Jesus was, believed in him, and still betrayed him.
I have always thought that Judas was bitterly disappointed that Jesus was not, after all, the foretold messiah--that is, the messiah predicted in the Hebrew scriptures, not the very different messiah who would later be described in the Greek scriptures. The Hebrew scriptures messiah was to be human, not divine; a patrilineal blood descendent of the house of David, not the son of God with no human father; a champion who would free the Jews from oppression and usher in an era of peace and justice, not a savior from sin. There apparently were many messianic cults in that era, centered around someone who came to be regarded as fulfilling that messianic role. Judas' only sense of messiah would be that described in the Hebrew scriptures, and he may have initially been drawn to think of Jesus in that role by virtue of the astonishing wisdom in Jesus' spiritual teachings; but perhaps it soon became clear that Jesus was not going to lead a revolt against the Roman authorities, which meant he was not the expected messiah after all.
Obviously, this is all speculation. But I think it is at least a reasonable speculation.
If Jesus were either claiming privately or publically that he was the messiah (of course, depends upon which Gospel you read) and Judas was angry that the revolution wasn't coming that makes sense.
The Gospel of Judas explains it by presenting Judas as the one who liberates Jesus from his earthly confine.
Of course, if you believe you're hanging out with god you're not going to betray god and lose access to him, will you?
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert
“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.
If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”
Does the betrayal of Jesus by Judas make sense if Jesus had preached his divinity and Judas, as a follower, believed it?
Yes, if Judas wished to force God’s hand and move Him to establish a geopolitical realm and not just the spiritual one Christ expounded.
There are plenty of Christians today who believe that God exists and will establish His kingdom. They also hope to speed up the process. They practice selective breeding to breed a red heifer because it is required to cleanse certain utensils that are made, in storage, and ready to be used in the future, but planned, Jewish temple (should the mosque that currently occupies the spot be destroyed). They lobby to have the US recognize Jerusalem instead of Tel Aviv as Israel’s capital. They raise money to help Russian Jews immigrate to Israel because Christ will come upon the return of the entire House of Israel to the area promised to King David.
There are plenty of other things that some Christians do with the intention of hurrying God along. If this is what they do, then it is perfectly logical to conclude that Judas had the same motives and that these could be exploited by Satan.
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
Does the betrayal of Jesus by Judas make sense if Jesus had preached his divinity and Judas, as a follower, believed it?
Yes, if Judas wished to force God’s hand and move Him to establish a geopolitical realm and not just the spiritual one Christ expounded.
There are plenty of Christians today who believe that God exists and will establish His kingdom. They also hope to speed up the process. They practice selective breeding to breed a red heifer because it is required to cleanse certain utensils that are made, in storage, and ready to be used in the future, but planned, Jewish temple (should the mosque that currently occupies the spot be destroyed). They lobby to have the US recognize Jerusalem instead of Tel Aviv as Israel’s capital. They raise money to help Russian Jews immigrate to Israel because Christ will come upon the return of the entire House of Israel to the area promised to King David.
There are plenty of other things that some Christians do with the intention of hurrying God along. If this is what they do, then it is perfectly logical to conclude that Judas had the same motives and that these could be exploited by Satan.
I hope that our friend Howie is following this and will contribute to this thread, but I'll offer my impression that hurrying along the coming of the messiah is part of Jewish thought, as well. However, I believe that their means of hastening that day is not about pushing geopolitical events but continually striving to be a light unto the people of the world through adherence to what they expect the messiah to bring about--an era of peace and justice.
I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasies and prejudices reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
I hope that our friend Howie is following this and will contribute to this thread, but I'll offer my impression that hurrying along the coming of the messiah is part of Jewish thought, as well. However, I believe that their means of hastening that day is not about pushing geopolitical events but continually striving to be a light unto the people of the world through adherence to what they expect the messiah to bring about--an era of peace and justice.
I agree with you HtC.
My argument was addressing KW’s, which, in a 'round about way, says that Judas didn’t believe Christ was God; therefore, he felt free to betray Christ. Had Judas believed that Christ was God, he wouldn’t have betrayed Christ.
This, of course, is not necessarily true and I gave a logical example of why Judas could believe that Christ was God and still betray Him. I also gave modern day examples of how people presume to think that they can force God to act by, in their minds, pinning Him into a corner.
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
John 18:2 Now Judas ...who was betraying Him...for money...Matthew 26:14
Acts 1:16 “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Luke 22:3; John 13:2 Jesus allowed Satan to sift / influence / "indwell" Judas...Satan cannot permanently "enter" believers.
Judas did not join Peter / other disciples in believing / proclaiming that Jesus was the Christ.
Judas was not forgiven like Peter, and he killed himself out of guilt and remorse.
If Judas had been a true believer, he could not have lost his "salvation".
