Now i no this has been done before infact its all been done before but i did say to GTBH i would do this because i we where getting of subject in another post,but i would like to know how jw just ingnore this clear and detailed doctrine that is in the Bible.

OK this is a subject that i and many people hate to talk about, in fact i never used to mention the word hell when i was trying to witness to people but a preacher i listen to a lot Ray Comfort wrote a book called Hells Best kept secrets, and he makes a good point in asking why are we afraid to warn people about such a place, you would warn people of other every day dangers, so i started to talk about this subject more and more, in fact Jesus talked more about eternal judgement than any other subject.

OK why did Jesus even talk about such a terrible and disturbing place, why is it even in the Bible, if like jw say we are just to be annihilated, what are we supposed to be saved from, well the obvious answer is, Jesus knew that this doctrine of eternal torment was the truth, and that hell, or to be more accurate the lake of fire is a literal place reserved for the devil, and he was desperate to let people know of this place so that they can avoid it. Jesus said that nothing in the world, in fact not even owning the world its self is worth going to eternal punishment Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
he also said it is better to get into heaven a cripple than go to hell(everlasting fire) a non cripple, Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Now the age old thing i hear people say is how can a God of infinite Love send people to such a terrible place, well the answer is simple he will do any thing possible to save us, consistent with justice, that is what he has done at the cross. But he will not do anything inconsistent with justice in fact he cant because God is truth and he is a just God. OK i would like to use an analogy to try and make the point, A man committed adultery and was tried and found guilty by the King, the man was the Kings son and was very popular with the people. Now the punishment for adultery was to have both eyes plucked out, the people liking this man pleaded with the King to forgive him. The King who loved his son very much knew he could not forgive his son with out allowing justice to be dune, he then stepped down from his thrown and had one of his sons eyes plucked out and then had one of his own eyes plucked out such was his love for his son, this satisfied the law. Well God did more than that for us he took all our punishment for sin by dieing on the cross for us, satisfying the Law. OK again i can not see how eternal punishment is even in the Bible if it is not literal, the Bible is very clear about this place it is called the lake of fire and it is a real place reserved for the devil and there is so much scripture to support this very important doctrine, so lets look at some of these scriptures

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Now when we read this scripture it is impossible to interpret "and they have no rest day nor night" to mean that these sinners will simpley not exist any more, what i want to know is why is this scripture even in the Bible if like jw suggest sinners will not exist any more. Jesus Himself told us that people would share this punishment with the devil

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? as you can see the saved are going to be with the LORD for eternity

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal and here you can see that the unsaved will be with the devil and his fallen angles for all eternity. All born again believers are righteous and they go into life eternal. 

Now look at this passage which clearly shows a place of eternal punishment is a literal place for the devil, and every person who is not born again will end up there with the devil Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Again there is torment day and night for ever and ever, not the false doctrine of annihilation preached by the WT&TS.

Now we all know the story of lazarus and the rich man, this indicates that people who are in this place will be conscious, no ifs no buts there is no other way to interpret this.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Now i wish this place did not exist but the Bible is very clear that the sinners who do not except Gods gift of salvation will suffer conscious punishment, in fact it is impossible to be punished and have no consciousness, these is why the doctrine of annihilation which is a man made doctrine that the WTS teach is a false doctrine, in fact annihilation would be a blessing not a punishment. Again the reason Christians dont like talking about hell let alone non Christians is the apparent injustice of eternal punishment for a good person who may only tell a white lie or has only stolen a paper clip in his whole life, we cannot with our finite minds understand how this can be justice being done here. Well the problem is, even Christians cannot fully understand the seriousness of sin, sin is so toxic to Gods Kingdom that he cannot tolerate it even in its smallest amount, this is the reason he had to make the ultimate sacrifice to allow justice to be done.

We think that its is OK to break 1 may be 2 of the ten commandments we think well i haven't done to bad, look at that person over there he/she has broke 8 of the commandments, most people in-fact i would say all people will say that they are a good person on the whole, but God says that all have fallen short and have broken every one of the ten commandments such is his standard, even if we think something sinful that's it we are guilty and deserve punishment.

But the good thing is he loves us so much that he gave his only begotten son to save us Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. God has made it so easy to avoid eternal punishment, we do not need to do any works, infact there is nothing we can do our selfs to be saved, it is a gift of grace all we need to do is ask for a sins to be forgiven and we will become born again in the spirit, the only way to see Gods Kingdom is to be born again Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

As  i said before it is a subject we feel uncomfortable to speak about but it is clearly in the Bible and it is our duty to tell people about this place. The good thing is God does not want us there and has made it easy to avoid this place. Annihilation is not an opposition again as i said why is eternal punishment even mentioned in the Bible, why do the WTS insist that it isnt there, infact why are they deceiving there followers on this subject, the fact is this deception will fast track its followers in to the lake of fire.

God Bless You

Denis

I  am  willing  to  discuss  this  subject  at  length,  but  I  am not  going  to  do  so  right  now as  I  just  went  through  a  form  of  punishment.   I  was  instructed  to  log  in  but  when  I  did  so,  it  did  not  work.  It  has  been  a  long  time  since  I  had  the  e-mail  address  I thought  I  was  logged  in  as,  so  since  it  did  not work  I re-registered  as  newmarken,  so  if  any want  to  use  this  beliefnet  e-mail  box,  that  is  how  I  am now  registered.  However,  I  will  continue  to  sign  my  posts

with  affection from  Marken

Jan 25, 2012 -- 2:57PM, newmarken wrote:

I  am  willing  to  discuss  this  subject  at  length,  but  I  am not  going  to  do  so  right  now as  I  just  went  through  a  form  of  punishment.   I  was  instructed  to  log  in  but  when  I  did  so,  it  did  not  work.  It  has  been  a  long  time  since  I  had  the  e-mail  address  I thought  I  was  logged  in  as,  so  since  it  did  not work  I re-registered  as  newmarken,  so  if  any want  to  use  this  beliefnet  e-mail  box,  that  is  how  I  am now  registered.  However,  I  will  continue  to  sign  my  posts

with  affection from  Marken

Hey Marken

This has happened to me as well, i changed my e mail in my profile.

Hope this helps.

God Bless You

Denis.

Jan 25, 2012 -- 4:08PM, DNT wrote:

Jan 25, 2012 -- 2:56PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

First point, God told Adam nothing about any conscious torment.

 

He told him he would die.  

(Genesis 2:17) . . .But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” 

 

Sending someone into conscious torment, when all you told them is that they would die, would be HEINOUS.

 

Second point, Hell and the Lake of fire are two distinct things.

Hell, along with death, are tossed into the lake of fire.

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev...

 

Can 'hell' suffer conscious torment in a lake of fire?   No.  Can 'death' suffer conscious torment in a lake of fire?  No.

Both hell and death can be done away with, or destroyed, and that is all the lake of fire means, eternal destruction. 

 

Hey GTBH

(Genesis 2:17) . . .But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

This verse has nothing to do with eternal punishment.

Of course it does.  God told Adam what the 'eternal punishment' for sin would be, that he would die.  He said nothing about any conscious torment. 

Sending someone into conscious torment, when all you told them is that they would die, would be HEINOUS.

Well all i can say you must have just shut your eyes when you came to the many verses that clearly state people are going to eternal punishment, in my post.

The verses don't clearly state people are going to eternal punishment.  You are interpreting them that way.   For one thing, you are interpreting a parable that isn't about the 'afterlife' as showing that we burn.  It doesn't show that, it is a parable.  There are many elements that help us see that it is not literal, that I will get into later, if Marken doesn't beat me to it.

Can 'hell' suffer conscious torment in a lake of fire?   No.  Can 'death' suffer conscious torment in a lake of fire?  No.

If you actually understood the Bible you would know that there is a second resurrection, and the unsaved which are going to be emptied out of hell will suffer eternal torment. --

-Death is the payment for sin, and you are not paid for sin twice.  You don't suffer eternal torment for a sin you have already been paid the penalty for, which is death, Romans 6:23

Both hell and death can be done away with, or destroyed, and that is all the lake of fire means, eternal destruction

I have just pasted what i said to you in my other post.

Can 'hell' suffer conscious torment in a lake of fire?   No.  Can 'death' suffer conscious torment in a lake of fire?  No.

OK about hell and death being thrown into the lake of fire. I will have ago and do my best to explain it, first of i always thought this a strange thing to say death and Hell thrown in the lake of fire, but if you allow your Bible to interpret scripture, not that rubbish the NWT, you will get the answer,but you listen to your fallen GB for you salvation. God is talking about the people as a whole, it is like Churchill saying that England will never surrender, he did not mean the actual county side, he meant the population of people as a whole would not surrender. This is what God was saying the unsaved in hell will be thrown into the lake of Fire. Remember after death it is judgement.

This explanation won't 'wash' as an explanation of how the 'beast' and 'false prophet' are literally tormented. 

I got to go to bed i will get back tomorrow.

 

I understand, and won't post anymore until you have a chance to return.  Can't speak for Marken, though. 

God Bless

Denis.

 

 

The doctrine of a literal, flesh-burning, human tormenting pit of fire is the number one worst perversion of Scripture that Babylon is responsible for.   

Now i wish this place did not exist but the Bible is very clear that the sinners who do not except Gods gift of salvation will suffer conscious punishment, in fact it is impossible to be punished and have no consciousness, these is why the doctrine of annihilation which is a man made doctrine that the WTS teach is a false doctrine, in fact annihilation would be a blessing not a punishment.  Again the reason Christians dont like talking about hell let alone non Christians is the apparent injustice of eternal punishment for a good person who may only tell a white lie or has only stolen a paper clip in his whole life, we cannot with our finite minds understand how this can be justice being done here.

 Well the problem is, even Christians cannot fully understand the seriousness of sin, sin is so toxic to Gods Kingdom that he cannot tolerate it even in its smallest amount, this is the reason he had to make the ultimate sacrifice to allow justice to be done. 
 

 The good thing is God does not want us there and has made it easy to avoid this place. Annihilation is not an opposition again as i said why is eternal punishment even mentioned in the Bible, why do the WTS insist that it isnt there, infact why are they deceiving there followers on this subject, the fact is this deception will fast track its followers in to the lake of fire

Horsefeathers.  About as credible as the JWs' "eternal Earth" silliness.