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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 3:08PM #31
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Jan 14, 2012 -- 2:27PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Now, the account tells us that 70,000 died.  It doesn't state '70,000 men, women, and children' and we have no way to know if the ones who died might have been guilty of some serious sin.  It doesn't say it was an indiscriminate slaughter.  Just as in Egypt, when only the Egyptian firstborn died, Jehovah can certainly direct who lives and who dies.




Well, with the 3 options David was given, all of Israel would at some point be affected.  Namely for his sin.  So, even if these were only men, they needn't necessarily have been involved in any evil.  In fact, the follow verse give a bit more context.


15And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.


So, unless God held back the angel, it would have continued with the slaughter, indiscriminately.  So, did God act justly in killing 70,000 for David's sin?



Ed mentioned someone had to be punished.  Ed, David was the one that sent out the order for the census!  He, of all people, should have been punished!  Instead, he gets to offer a sacrifice to God, which is something I thought only Levites did and which King Saul was scolded for.  David, God's golden boy.


Also Ed, it's the KJV, the first one that pops up in a google search, so sorry about that weird language.  I'm just lazy.  Tongue Out




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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 3:14PM #32
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583
There were numerous cases where the nation suffered because of the sins of the kings.  And David did suffer... there were likely moments he wished he could have been one of the dead, instead of feeling the weight of his guilt.

But you can assume that Jehovah swept away the 'righteous with the wicked' or you can assume, as did Abraham, that the 'Judge of all the earth would do what was right.' 

Some of these accounts would seem to leave out pertinent details, just so that our own 'viewpoint' or heart condition toward God, is manifested in how we respond to them.

(Hebrews 4:12) . . .For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.
“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 4:40PM #33
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 14, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

But you can assume that Jehovah swept away the 'righteous with the wicked' or you can assume, as did Abraham, that the 'Judge of all the earth would do what was right.'



Hmmm. That reminds me of why all the babies and the women and the children had to be killed in Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them. After all, everyone in those cities were not predatorial males who wanted to rape the two angels(who they thought were men) who had showed up in town.


Also, according to Jesus, Sodom would have repented and would have not been destroyed if Jesus had performed the same miracles in it as he did in Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum.(Matthew 11:20-24)


Plus, since Nineveh was given an opportunity to repent, it makes you wonder why Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them were not given that opportunity. Additonally, New Testament scriptures give the impression that the reason why the entire cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them were destroyed(which included women, children, and babies) was because the men in those towns had depraved sexual behavior. (Jude 1:7, 2 Peter 2:6-8)


Therefore, all the women, children, and babies in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, must have been wicked, since Jehovah would have never swept away the righteous with the wicked.(Genesis 18:23)

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 4:54PM #34
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Evidently, all the adults were wicked.  Children do suffer for the sins of their fathers.


 


We are all suffering for the sin of our one father, Adam.  (Temporarily.)  But I like your post because it reminds me of why we preach.


 


*** w03 7/15 p. 18 par. 11 How Should We View People as Jehovah’s Day Approaches? ***
 Abraham repeatedly pleaded with God regarding possible righteous ones in Sodom. Are we personally concerned about people who would reject the ways of this world under Satan’s control if given the opportunity to repent and serve God?—1 John 5:19; Revelation 18:2-4. 


 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 5:40PM #35
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Jan 14, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

And David did suffer... there were likely moments he wished he could have been one of the dead, instead of feeling the weight of his guilt.



Poor David.  A couple of months of suffering.  Those 70,000 should be thanking him.


Jan 14, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

Some of these accounts would seem to leave out pertinent details, just so that our own 'viewpoint' or heart condition toward God, is manifested in how we respond to them.



So, when in doubt, always go with the Bible.  Gee, why didn't I think of that? 


Indeed GTBHS, life seems much easier when viewed through a believer's looking lense.

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 5:47PM #36
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Indeed GTBHS, life seems much easier when viewed through a believer's looking lense.


 


Actually, life is practically effortless through a believer's lens. 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 6:30PM #37
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:54PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Evidently, all the adults were wicked.  Children do suffer for the sins of their fathers.




Wow! What a typical hardcore fundamentalist answer.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 6:33PM #38
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 14, 2012 -- 5:47PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Indeed GTBHS, life seems much easier when viewed through a believer's looking lense.


 


Actually, life is practically effortless through a believer's lens. 




Quote:


Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.



Ed2's response: Except when you're wearing rose-colored glasses.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 8:36PM #39
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Well, I've done life 'with' the believer's lens, and without.


 


And 'with' turned out to be way easier, with more clarity and purpose.


 


I'm not Einstein, but I'm smart enough not to do it the 'hard way' when I can see an easier way. 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 11:50PM #40
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 14, 2012 -- 8:36PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Well, I've done life 'with' the believer's lens, and without.


 


And 'with' turned out to be way easier, with more clarity and purpose.


 


I'm not Einstein, but I'm smart enough not to do it the 'hard way' when I can see an easier way. 




Well, that's fair, and I'm glad that that is working out for you.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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