Mar 16, 2012 -- 5:30PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

So you're saying that both the Bible writers and Jesus himself had Jesus' second 'presence' in mind when they were discussing the initial fulfillment of the sign....which pertained to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things? And if so, please explain how that works.

Jesus gave a composite sign that had a dual application, for the 'great tribulation' that would befall the Jews, and for the time of the end, or the tribulation that precedes Armageddon.

(Matthew 24:3) . . ., the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

So though the 'end time presence' wasn't going to be the same as the 'end of Jewish system' of things, the language used to refer to both events would be similar.

And would they need to believe 'the end was nigh?' 

They would need to live as if it were.

(2 Peter 3:12) . . .and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, . . .

goodtobehome - Thank you for responding to Ed's post 53 which is now in his signature.

Of course, the "day of Jehovah" has reference to Armageddon more than to the limited destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE - hence the end in Matthew 24:3,14!

Apparently, as per another thread, Ed thinks the dual applications of the multiple question in Matthew 24:3 is bad - but not us!

E.g. the great tribulation in Mt. 24 was the worst ever on a city in 70 CE - I do not know of another destruction of one city which entailed the death of about 1 million people!  Certainly, though, the greater fulfillment is Armageddon - the ultimate day of Jehovah.

(Revelation 16:14) They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

(Revelation 16:16) And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Ma·ged′on.

 It is interesting to note the gradual increase in light on this subject in the Scriptures - i.e. progressive enlightenment.

(Daniel 12:8-10) . . .Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?” ⁹ And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. ¹⁰ Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.

E.g. when the actual time of the end is!

For example, the misunderstanding the disciples had on two points as per their leading question in Acts 1:6,7!

 

Newtonian, you haven't addressed the points I made.  On what basis can you claim the Canaanites were given a chance to repent?  Deuteronomy 20 gives specific instructions on how to deal with other nations.  However, the Canaanites, among the other tribes that inhabited the land, were sentenced to utter destruction.  Why this duality?

Another thing is that if God, being all-powerful and merciful really wanted those tribes to repent, he could've sent a sign that was inequivocabley his and spared those ignorant souls.

I simply expect more from a being that claims to be far superior than anything we could possibly imagine.

Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

Jehovah should have sent a sign.

Pillar of fire and cloud not good enough?  That stayed with the Israelites all through the 40 years that the Israelites traveled, lifted to tell them when to move out, stopped when it was time to camp, was visible by day and night, and as a pillar in the sky above the camp, you don't think it was only visible to the Israelites, do you?

You would have to be really foolish to mess with people that had a column of fire accompanying them 40 years.  They went ahead and did it anyways.  Hence my doubt the Canaanites or any other tribe had anything tangible to go on.

Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

Rahab saw God's works and figured out what they meant, that Jehovah was the true God, and did something about it.

(Joshua 2:10-11) 10 For we have heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea from before YOU when YOU came out of Egypt, and what YOU did to the two kings of the Am′or‧ites who were on the other side of the Jordan, namely, Si′hon and Og, whom YOU devoted to destruction. 11 When we got to hear it, then our hearts began to melt, and no spirit has arisen yet in anybody because of YOU, for Jehovah YOUR God is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.

If the Romans were coming my way, I too would attempt to placate their fury by joining them.  That in no way proves divine intervention, which is precisely what I'm getting at.  In fact, you highlighted "we have heard."  Sorry, but I don't take word of mouth as Gospel.  Would've been interesting if Rahab saw the column of fire, or would've mentioned it, as you said.

Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

So did the Gibeonites, who shrewdly sued for peace with the people they figured out had the true God.

Who even through lying, which Jehovah supposedly detests, got away with the deal.

Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

Other people saw and heard of the same things, and didn't do anything about it.  That doesn't mean they could not have done something about it.  The Jews did accept proselytes.

And an old book proves all of this?  I'm supposed to just believe this?  Where's the proof?  Even Thomas obtained a sign.  Is faith in the fictitious or unprovable really a virtue then?

Jan 14, 2012 -- 2:27PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

Now, the account tells us that 70,000 died.  It doesn't state '70,000 men, women, and children' and we have no way to know if the ones who died might have been guilty of some serious sin.  It doesn't say it was an indiscriminate slaughter.  Just as in Egypt, when only the Egyptian firstborn died, Jehovah can certainly direct who lives and who dies.

I'm bumping this up to say: I noticed that verse 17(2 Samuel 24) wasn't mentioned(emphasis mine):

When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd, have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

...which seems to speak volumes.