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3 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2012 - 7:15PM #81
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Deuteronomy 20:16-18


16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroya]">[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.




God sanctions genocide, along with the killing of woman and children.  Why are innocent women and children (probably even livestock) involved in this?  Does anyone else find this judgment fair or brutal?




Goodtobehome says this in another thread.



Some Canaanites did pay attention to the marvelous things God was doing with the Israelites and convert, they did have the opportunity to 'repent their ways.'  Rahab, and the men of Gibeon at Joshua 9.  So actually God did reveal himself to them.  The word spread far and wide of the miracles, the manna, the Red Sea parting, the fact that no army could stand against this army of slaves.



So the fact that these few repented and were delivered, indicates that any of them could have done so.  But only a few did.



Actually, read the account of Joshua 9 carefully.  It is only through deception that the Gibeonites got away.  Israelites had to keep their oaths.  Otherwise, the Israelites were instructed to destroy them without mercy.


As for the Canaanites being given a chance to repent, read this portion of Joshua.


Joshua 9:1,2


 1 Now when all the kings west of the Jordan heard about these things (such as the destroying of Ai by Joshua's army)—the kings in the hill country, in the western foothills, and along the entire coast of the Mediterranean Sea as far as Lebanon (the kings of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites)— 2 they came together to wage war against Joshua and Israel.


This, with human eyes, was a human military victory.  These people had no proof that God was with the Israelites.  Winning a battle doesn't mean you had divine intervention.  So, exactly what need they repent from if they didn't see "God's hand" in these victories?  Can you really call that fair warning?





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 7:12AM #82
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Mar 16, 2012 -- 5:30PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


So you're saying that both the Bible writers and Jesus himself had Jesus' second 'presence' in mind when they were discussing the initial fulfillment of the sign....which pertained to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things? And if so, please explain how that works.


Jesus gave a composite sign that had a dual application, for the 'great tribulation' that would befall the Jews, and for the time of the end, or the tribulation that precedes Armageddon.


(Matthew 24:3) . . ., the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”


So though the 'end time presence' wasn't going to be the same as the 'end of Jewish system' of things, the language used to refer to both events would be similar.



And would they need to believe 'the end was nigh?' 


They would need to live as if it were.


(2 Peter 3:12) . . .and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, . . .





goodtobehome - Thank you for responding to Ed's post 53 which is now in his signature.


Of course, the "day of Jehovah" has reference to Armageddon more than to the limited destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE - hence the end in Matthew 24:3,14!


Apparently, as per another thread, Ed thinks the dual applications of the multiple question in Matthew 24:3 is bad - but not us!


E.g. the great tribulation in Mt. 24 was the worst ever on a city in 70 CE - I do not know of another destruction of one city which entailed the death of about 1 million people!  Certainly, though, the greater fulfillment is Armageddon - the ultimate day of Jehovah.


(Revelation 16:14) They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.


(Revelation 16:16) And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Ma·ged′on.


 It is interesting to note the gradual increase in light on this subject in the Scriptures - i.e. progressive enlightenment.


(Daniel 12:8-10) . . .Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?” 9 And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.


E.g. when the actual time of the end is!


For example, the misunderstanding the disciples had on two points as per their leading question in Acts 1:6,7!





 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 7:28AM #83
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Knowsnothing - Just because some cities or peoples slated for destruction did not repent did not mean they could not repent.   Jericho was destroyed, but not Rahab and her household were not.   Sodom was destroyed but not Lot and his daughters.


And what of Nineveh?   Was Jonah a false prophet in proclaiming their destruction in 40 days?   Or did Jehovah feel regrets, and if so - why?


The canaanites were guilty of capital offenses, btw.   Those living as they did but who were Israelites were executed under the Mosaic law - so the extermination of nations practicing these things was the same as the execution of Jews within Israel for practicing the same things.


See Genesis 15:12-16 - the Canaanites behavior was tolerated for over 400 years!


Archaelogists have unearthed jars containing the remains of sacrificed children - child sacrifice was but one of the detestable religious practices of Canaanites.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 1:11PM #84
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150
Newtonian, you haven't addressed the points I made.  On what basis can you claim the Canaanites were given a chance to repent?  Deuteronomy 20 gives specific instructions on how to deal with other nations.  However, the Canaanites, among the other tribes that inhabited the land, were sentenced to utter destruction.  Why this duality?

Another thing is that if God, being all-powerful and merciful really wanted those tribes to repent, he could've sent a sign that was inequivocabley his and spared those ignorant souls.

I simply expect more from a being that claims to be far superior than anything we could possibly imagine.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 1:50PM #85
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Jehovah should have sent a sign.


Pillar of fire and cloud not good enough?  That stayed with the Israelites all through the 40 years that the Israelites traveled, lifted to tell them when to move out, stopped when it was time to camp, was visible by day and night, and as a pillar in the sky above the camp, you don't think it was only visible to the Israelites, do you?


Rahab saw God's works and figured out what they meant, that Jehovah was the true God, and did something about it.


(Joshua 2:10-11) 10 For we have heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea from before YOU when YOU came out of Egypt, and what YOU did to the two kings of the Am′or‧ites who were on the other side of the Jordan, namely, Si′hon and Og, whom YOU devoted to destruction. 11 When we got to hear it, then our hearts began to melt, and no spirit has arisen yet in anybody because of YOU, for Jehovah YOUR God is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.


So did the Gibeonites, who shrewdly sued for peace with the people they figured out had the true God.



Other people saw and heard of the same things, and didn't do anything about it.  That doesn't mean they could not have done something about it.  The Jews did accept proselytes.


(Exodus 22:21) 21 “And you must not maltreat an alien resident or oppress him, for YOU people became alien residents in the land of Egypt.
  (Leviticus 19:34) . . .The alien resident who resides as an alien with YOU should become to YOU like a native of YOURS; and you must love him as yourself, for YOU became alien residents in the land of Egypt. I am Jehovah YOUR God.



Another word for 'alien resident' is proselyte.  Anyone who became a proselyte would no longer be considered a Canaanite, but a Jew.


“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 2:46PM #86
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Jehovah should have sent a sign.


Pillar of fire and cloud not good enough?  That stayed with the Israelites all through the 40 years that the Israelites traveled, lifted to tell them when to move out, stopped when it was time to camp, was visible by day and night, and as a pillar in the sky above the camp, you don't think it was only visible to the Israelites, do you?



You would have to be really foolish to mess with people that had a column of fire accompanying them 40 years.  They went ahead and did it anyways.  Hence my doubt the Canaanites or any other tribe had anything tangible to go on.


Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Rahab saw God's works and figured out what they meant, that Jehovah was the true God, and did something about it.


(Joshua 2:10-11) 10 For we have heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea from before YOU when YOU came out of Egypt, and what YOU did to the two kings of the Am′or‧ites who were on the other side of the Jordan, namely, Si′hon and Og, whom YOU devoted to destruction. 11 When we got to hear it, then our hearts began to melt, and no spirit has arisen yet in anybody because of YOU, for Jehovah YOUR God is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.



If the Romans were coming my way, I too would attempt to placate their fury by joining them.  That in no way proves divine intervention, which is precisely what I'm getting at.  In fact, you highlighted "we have heard."  Sorry, but I don't take word of mouth as Gospel.  Would've been interesting if Rahab saw the column of fire, or would've mentioned it, as you said.


Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


So did the Gibeonites, who shrewdly sued for peace with the people they figured out had the true God.



Who even through lying, which Jehovah supposedly detests, got away with the deal.


Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Other people saw and heard of the same things, and didn't do anything about it.  That doesn't mean they could not have done something about it.  The Jews did accept proselytes.




And an old book proves all of this?  I'm supposed to just believe this?  Where's the proof?  Even Thomas obtained a sign.  Is faith in the fictitious or unprovable really a virtue then?


Moderated by nanalulu222 on Apr 01, 2012 - 06:38PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 9:13PM #87
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Mar 17, 2012 -- 10:59AM, Ed2 wrote:


Mar 17, 2012 -- 9:57AM, Newtonian wrote:


2)Since serpents won't be literally eating dust in the new system, what would be your guess as to what serpents will eat in the new system?


As I said above, the same as their pre-flood diet when Genesis 3:14 was fulfilled upon the literal serpent. 


Btw the serpent (Satan) will "lick the dust" - as per the current English idiom.



 


Um, you're being too vague, Newtonian. Therefore, what exactly was the serpents per-flood diet?



Bump for Newtonian or any other JW would like to give an honest answer as to what was the pre-flood diet of snakes.

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3 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 7:40AM #88
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jan 14, 2012 -- 2:27PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Now, the account tells us that 70,000 died.  It doesn't state '70,000 men, women, and children' and we have no way to know if the ones who died might have been guilty of some serious sin.  It doesn't say it was an indiscriminate slaughter.  Just as in Egypt, when only the Egyptian firstborn died, Jehovah can certainly direct who lives and who dies.



I'm bumping this up to say: I noticed that verse 17(2 Samuel 24) wasn't mentioned(emphasis mine):


When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd, have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”



...which seems to speak volumes.

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