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Switch to Forum Live View Scriptures such as Numbers 5:11-22
2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 9:32AM #61
Newtonian
Posts: 12,121

Jan 11, 2012 -- 6:17AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Since the law was equal for both sexes if there was proof of adultery, men and women were both liable to execution, we might just assume that in general women were too busy and too sensible to unjustly charge unfaithfulness.  Seeing a weakness in Israelite men toward this, Jehovah made provision.Wink




Good humor!Smile

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 9:40AM #62
Newtonian
Posts: 12,121

Mar 17, 2012 -- 5:37AM, Ed2 wrote:


Mar 16, 2012 -- 5:30PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


So you're saying that both the Bible writers and Jesus himself had Jesus' second 'presence' in mind when they were discussing the initial fulfillment of the sign....which pertained to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things? And if so, please explain how that works.


Jesus gave a composite sign that had a dual application, for the 'great tribulation' that would befall the Jews, and for the time of the end, or the tribulation that precedes Armageddon.


(Matthew 24:3) . . ., the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”


So though the 'end time presence' wasn't going to be the same as the 'end of Jewish system' of things, the language used to refer to both events would be similar.




Hmmm. Well, let me ask you this: Why were Jesus' disciples asking Jesus about both the 'end time presence' and the 'end of Jewish system' of things?  


They asked about 3 things because they wanted to know.  The 3 things:


1.  "these things" - the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem (70 CE)


2.  Jesus' presence/parousia - 1914 until the end.


3.  the syntelias (conclusion) of the aionos (system of things).


Mar 16, 2012 -- 5:30PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


And would they need to believe 'the end was nigh?' 


They would need to live as if it were.


(2 Peter 3:12) . . .and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, . . .




But that's not answering the question that I asked you in regards to that. What I asked you was: So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?


They didn't have to, but they probably did:


(1 Corinthians 7:29) . . .Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced. . .






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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 9:57AM #63
Newtonian
Posts: 12,121

Mar 17, 2012 -- 7:51AM, Ed2 wrote:


I have a few more questions from another thread


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4... (post #113)


since I don't really don't think that Faith_on_the_March is a JW:


I do believe it is actually a book!


Isaiah 65:25a(NWT) says:



“The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust.



Therefore, I have two questions about this scripture...for anyone who would like to answer.



1)If these prophecies are literal, then why isn't verse 25a consistent since it uses symbolic language for the serpent?


(Genesis 3:14) . . .. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. . .


Because the prophecy has both a literal and and a figurative application.   Please note that the food serpents ate before the flood would be essentially the same on the New Earth paradise.   However, this particular statement calls to mind the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 - deliberately.



2)Since serpents won't be literally eating dust in the new system, what would be your guess as to what serpents will eat in the new system?


As I said above, the same as their pre-flood diet when Genesis 3:14 was fulfilled upon the literal serpent. 


Btw the serpent (Satan) will "lick the dust" - as per the current English idiom.


 


 





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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 10:16AM #64
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Hmmm. Well, let me ask you this: Why were Jesus' disciples asking Jesus about both the 'end time presence' and the 'end of Jewish system' of things?  



They asked about 3 things because they wanted to know.  The 3 things:



1.  "these things" - the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem (70 CE)



2.  Jesus' presence/parousia - 1914 until the end.



3.  the syntelias (conclusion) of the aionos (system of things). 



And why were they combining all 3 things into one question?



But that's not answering the question that I asked you in regards to that. What I asked you was: So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?




They didn't have to, but they probably did:




(1 Corinthians 7:29) . . .Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced. . .




That's not what GTBHS said in her post #50:



they would need to believe that the presence of the Lord has drawn close and that for “a very little while”...“he who is coming will arrive and will not delay” and that they were eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ?



But even after the destruction, after the initial fulfillment, the words to encourage Christ's followers to faithfulness and endurance were to be followed. 



They would need to live in expectation of the fulfillment of the promises, or else the human temptation to live for self would override their desire to 'be found spotless.'




Also, do you mind letting GTBSH answer for herself?  She was the person that I was originally talking to....and she is the person who knows the nuances of our conversation better than you do. 


Thanks.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 10:42AM #65
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Mar 17, 2012 -- 9:57AM, Newtonian wrote:



1)If these prophecies are literal, then why isn't verse 25a consistent since it uses symbolic language for the serpent?


(Genesis 3:14) . . .. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. . .


Because the prophecy has both a literal and and a figurative application.   Please note that the food serpents ate before the flood would be essentially the same on the New Earth paradise.   However, this particular statement calls to mind the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 - deliberately.




Another part of the curse was that the serpent would now go "upon its belly."  Did serpents have legs before this curse?  And, to be quite honest, I don't see how that is a curse, as other creatures go upon their belly as well.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 10:59AM #66
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 17, 2012 -- 9:57AM, Newtonian wrote:


2)Since serpents won't be literally eating dust in the new system, what would be your guess as to what serpents will eat in the new system?


As I said above, the same as their pre-flood diet when Genesis 3:14 was fulfilled upon the literal serpent. 


Btw the serpent (Satan) will "lick the dust" - as per the current English idiom.



 


Um, you're being too vague, Newtonian. Therefore, what exactly was the serpents per-flood diet?




I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 11:21AM #67
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

(Matthew 13:39) . . .The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.


(Matthew 21:43-44) 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
(Matthew 23:37-24:2) 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. 39 For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” 24 Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”



They asked for a sign, because Jesus had already spoken to them of the 'conclusion of the system of things.'  Did they know there were actually to be two fulfillments?  I can't see how.  Their job was to publicize what they knew, what Jesus had told them.  And if they had known in 33 C.E. that Jerusalem would not fall until 70 C.E. would they have been the energetic preachers of this fact that they were?  Probably not. 


The system of worship centered at Jerusalem had represented God's kingdom, but was being taken away from the Jewish nation, and the Christians had to live in line with that fact, and in expectation of the execution of judgment on apostate Israel.  And they had to teach others to do the same.


One clue that there is a greater fulfillment lies in the phrase 'tribulation that has not occured since the world's beginning.'  While the coming tribulation of Jerusalem was staggering, it did not match the scope of the Flood.  But the early Christians rightly publicized the tribulation that was coming in their day, using language Jesus had used that would later refer to both fulfillments, even though Christ wasn't 'present' in the same way for the Jerusalem destruction as he is in our day, as enthroned King. 



A person would always need to live as if the Kingdom were 'near' or they would lose their focus, and live for self.  The temptation for that is just that great.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 11:26AM #68
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Serpents weren't being judged, Satan was.  There would be no reason to curse the innocent creature because Satan used it as a mouthpiece.   The prophecy spoke of the serpent being 'abased' or 'brought low' because Satan was being 'abased' to the low spiritual state called Tartarus.  2 Peter 2:4


“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 2:24PM #69
Newtonian
Posts: 12,121

Mar 17, 2012 -- 10:42AM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Mar 17, 2012 -- 9:57AM, Newtonian wrote:



1)If these prophecies are literal, then why isn't verse 25a consistent since it uses symbolic language for the serpent?


(Genesis 3:14) . . .. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. . .


Because the prophecy has both a literal and and a figurative application.   Please note that the food serpents ate before the flood would be essentially the same on the New Earth paradise.   However, this particular statement calls to mind the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 - deliberately.




Another part of the curse was that the serpent would now go "upon its belly."  Did serpents have legs before this curse?  And, to be quite honest, I don't see how that is a curse, as other creatures go upon their belly as well.




Good question.  The original serpent, as in Revelation 12:9, was Satan - and he is indeed on his last legs!Surprised


Actually, that is a good question - answered twice over the years in our Questions from readers.


Here is the more recent answer:


"


Questions


From Readers


Did


the serpent that spoke to Eve have legs?


As recorded at Genesis 3:14, Jehovah God addressed the serpent that had deceived Eve in the garden of Eden. God said: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life.” The Bible does not specifically state that the animal used in tempting Eve had previously had legs but lost them. While the wording of Genesis 3:14 might lead some to think so, we need not necessarily conclude that prior to this curse, serpents had legs. Why not?


Principally because the real object of Jehovah’s judgment was Satan—the invisible spirit who had misused that lowly animal. The Bible describes Satan as “the father of the lie” and “the original serpent.” Both of these expressions apparently point back to Satan’s using a visible animal, a serpent, as his mouthpiece to induce Eve to disobey God’s command.—John 8:44; Revelation 20:2.


God created serpents, and Adam had apparently given serpents their name before Satan’s deceptive act. The unreasoning serpent that spoke to Eve was not to blame. It would have been unaware that Satan was manipulating it, and it could not understand the judgment that God rendered against the disobedient parties.


Why, then, did God speak of the serpent’s physical abasement? The behavior of a serpent in its natural environment, crawling on its belly and flicking its tongue as if to lick up dust, fittingly symbolized Satan’s debased condition. Having previously enjoyed a lofty position as one of God’s angels, he was consigned to the lowly condition referred to in the Bible as Tartarus.—2 Peter 2:4.


Further, as a literal serpent might wound a man’s heel, Satan in his debased state would ‘bruise the heel’ of God’s “seed.” (Genesis 3:15) The primary part of that seed proved to be Jesus Christ, who temporarily suffered at the hands of Satan’s agents. But the symbolic serpent’s head will, in time, be permanently crushed by Christ and his resurrected anointed Christian companions. (Romans 16:20) Thus, God’s directing his curse toward the visible serpent aptly pictured the debasement and ultimate destruction of the invisible “original serpent,” Satan the Devil." - "The Watchtower," 6/15/07, p. 31


In short, good to be home was correct.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 7:16PM #70
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 17, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


They asked for a sign, because Jesus had already spoken to them of the 'conclusion of the system of things.'  Did they know there were actually to be two fulfillments?  I can't see how.  Their job was to publicize what they knew, what Jesus had told them.  And if they had known in 33 C.E. that Jerusalem would not fall until 70 C.E. would they have been the energetic preachers of this fact that they were?  Probably not.



That doesn't make any sense. 70 C.E. is only 37 years from 33 C.E., therefore, in looking at  Charles Taze Russel's and the Watchtower Society's behavior in the 19th and 20th century in regards to erroneous 'close at hand' dates that they have calculated, you would think that Jesus' 1st century disciples would have been total fanactics if they knew for a fact that Jerusalem would fall in only 37 years.


Mar 17, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


[. . .]


A person would always need to live as if the Kingdom were 'near' or they would lose their focus, and live for self.  The temptation for that is just that great.




GTBHS, I like the way that you don't cite or quote specifically the question or questions that you are responding to. Which makes it difficult sometimes to know exactly what you are talking about in some of your posts. And sometimes I know that I personally, am not sure if all my questions have been answered or if some of my questions have been skipped. 


But let me ask you this...is your above quote an affirmative to the one question that I have asked (now)three times: So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?


And I don't want to make it sound like I am 'accusing' you of anything, but for some reason, I can't seem to get a 'yes' or a 'no' answer from you regarding this question.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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