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Switch to Forum Live View Scriptures such as Numbers 5:11-22
3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 8:45PM #1
Ed2
Posts: 3,322
Why do JWs ignore questions about scriptures such as Numbers 5:11-22?


Jan 10, 2012 -- 1:46AM, Ed2 wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 9:07PM, Ed2 wrote:


Jan 8, 2012 -- 10:38PM, Svetlana wrote:


Jan 8, 2012 -- 9:40PM, Kemmer wrote:


Numbers 5:11-22


11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephahc]">[c]of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.


16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a cursed]">[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”


   “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”



Typical bible.  Kill/curse an adulteress, but as for the man, "boys will be boys".



...and absolute, irrefutable proof that it is NOT to be taken as anything more than the flawed understanding of racist, misogynistic men.  That's what it IS, but the word of God can still be found in it.  You just have to wade through the cultural crap to find it, you can't take the cultural crap (all hatefulness is crap, and there ain't no love at all in these passages) literally and call it law.


Every last bit of injustice is evil and hated by God.  To call every misogynistic or racist law "just" is to insult God, and may even be blasphemy.



Yes, but that would mean that 2 Timothy 3:16 isn't true and that Jehovah's Witnesses' belief in 2 Timothy 3:16 as being true, which would include Numbers 5:11-22, isn't true either.




Bump for Newtonian and other JWs...for I would like to hear how they explain the righteousness of Numbers 5:11-22.


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 8:59PM #2
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583


 


Purity of family line was very important to the Israelites and adultery simply wasn't tolerated.  If a man was suspicious of his wife, but there were no witnesses to any wrongdoing and she wasn't confessing (if guilty) this provided him a way to have her tried.  Basically, he calls upon Jehovah as the only available 'witness' to the crime.  And if she were innocent, it was clear, if she was guilty she was stricken with a wasting away of her sexual organs.


Notice she was not put to death, even if shown to be guilty, as there was only one witness, even if it was the true God.  Two witnesses were essential to be found liable to be executed.


What exactly is your objection?   

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 9:35PM #3
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

By the way, this was actually a very loving arrangement for any innocent woman who we being falsely accused.  If you've ever been accused or had someone suspect you of wrong when you are quite innocent, you would understand.Wink


 


This gave the innocent woman a way to clear herself of any stain of suspicion.   I imagine only a truly caring God could come up with such an excellent solution to unfounded jealousy.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 11:46PM #4
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Hmmm. Well, I was just wondering if there was a similar stipulation in the Law for men who were suspected of cheating on their wives where the men's testicles fell off if it turned out that they were guilty.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 11:55PM #5
Kemmer
Posts: 16,440

  If a man was suspicious of his wife, but there were no witnesses to any wrongdoing and she wasn't confessing (if guilty) this provided him a way to have her tried.  Basically, he calls upon Jehovah as the only available 'witness' to the crime.  And if she were innocent, it was clear, if she was guilty she was stricken with a wasting away of her sexual organs.



In the 17th century, God was more direct and had assistance in his judgement.  A suspected woman was tied to a chair and flung into a pond.  If she sank and drowned, she was guilty, but if she floated to the surface she was innocent and God saved her.  Lot's of guilty women, I suspect.


After all, divorce was shameful for a man, and this little ceremony avoided the opprobrium of divorce if he had his eye on a chick in the next village.


Hmmm. Well, I was just wondering if there was a similar stipulation in the Law for men who were suspected of cheating on their wives where the men's testicles fell off if it turned out that they were guilty.



Not bloody likely!

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 3:44AM #6
Theo
Posts: 4,687

Well - let's assume that Jehovah never held up his part of the deal - and the bitter water mixed up by the priests was poisonous to begin with. Okay - I see your point. Not a bloody chance for an innocent wife suspected by her jealous husband.


But, let's assume that the bitter water was not really harmful or fatal if swallowed? But after drinking it, the woman wasted away anyway- was God holding up His end of the deal; or did the woman only get sick because she believed she was cursed of God for committing adultery? Did the Israelites believe in psychosomatic disorders and sicknesses?


Or better yet, what if the woman was innocent, drank the bitter water that was not actually poisonous, and came out feeling better than ever. Would she not appear vindicated by God? Would her husband not be put to shame if he hoped to put an end to her?


While I can see how this could be a rigged game, I can also see how God could make things work out, both in the case of her innocence or guilt. And as to why there was not a corresponding rite for men - well marriage was not a 50/50 deal in the ancient world. Men were the head of the household and women were more or less property within Jewish culture - and thus men had a right to divorce their wives, but wives did not have the right to divorce their husbands. The same appears to be the case here - although there is no telling how an Israelite priest would have reacted if a Hebrew wife came to a him and accused her husband of adultery.


Personally, I would just refuse to drink the bitter water and tell the priest - "you drink it."


~ Theophilus

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 6:17AM #7
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Since the law was equal for both sexes if there was proof of adultery, men and women were both liable to execution, we might just assume that in general women were too busy and too sensible to unjustly charge unfaithfulness.  Seeing a weakness in Israelite men toward this, Jehovah made provision.Wink

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 10:11AM #8
Kemmer
Posts: 16,440

 ...we might just assume that in general women were too busy and too sensible to unjustly charge unfaithfulness...



Besides, a woman didn't have a chance unless she together with several other witnesses,  chanced upon the husband in flagrante.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 12:06PM #9
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Jan 11, 2012 -- 6:17AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Since the law was equal for both sexes if there was proof of adultery, men and women were both liable to execution, we might just assume that in general women were too busy and too sensible to unjustly charge unfaithfulness.  Seeing a weakness in Israelite men toward this, Jehovah made provision.



That's a nice way to rationalize it.... or we can clearly see the mysogynistic way in which women were treated at that time.  Like Theo said, women were property.


Kinda makes you glad you live in the modern day and age, huh?

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 5:38PM #10
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

I'm a woman, and I can't see misogyny.   And being 'owned as a wife' is not a bad thing, it was lovely for Sarah, it seems, and I doubt that Zipporah, as wife of a powerful yet meek and gracious man who was more concerned about others than himself, was unhappy with her situation.


If a person was created to be a complement, then surely they will find the fullest happiness in fulfilling the purpose for which they were created.   A woman who uses her feminine powers wisely is a powerful person indeed.


And I would never want to live anywhere or 'anywhen' other than where and when I live.  To do otherwise would be a bit silly. 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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