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Switch to Forum Live View Qur'an says Allah gave Israel to the Jews
4 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 8:26PM #221
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Ibn


Actually, he is the Imam of the largest Mosque in Italy and a leader of the Muslim community in Italy where he spends a great deal of his time speaking for and on behalf of the Italian Muslim community. And yes, he is fat. So was Pavoratti but he could still sing. Italian food is good.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 04, 2012 - 3:28AM #222
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Jul 3, 2012 -- 8:26PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


Actually, he is the Imam of the largest Mosque in Italy and a leader of the Muslim community in Italy where he spends a great deal of his time speaking for and on behalf of the Italian Muslim community. And yes, he is fat. So was Pavoratti but he could still sing. Italian food is good.



He is not the imam but an ignorant imam. He does not have knowledge of both the Qur'an and the Jewish bible.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2012 - 8:52AM #223
Dostojevsky
Posts: 9,063

Quote:


"The land was given to people like Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob who were not Jews but Muslims. Some of their descendants began to call themselves Jews, and the land was never given to Jews but to Abraham and his descendants who were Muslims according to the Qur'an."


Ibn, please help me here.


Was Qur'an written about 600AD?


When did the term 'Muslim' come into usage?


 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2012 - 7:04PM #224
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Aug 13, 2012 -- 8:52AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Quote:


"The land was given to people like Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob who were not Jews but Muslims. Some of their descendants began to call themselves Jews, and the land was never given to Jews but to Abraham and his descendants who were Muslims according to the Qur'an."


Ibn, please help me here.


Was Qur'an written about 600AD?


When did the term 'Muslim' come into usage?



Actually, in Arabic, the term is not Muslim but muslim. There is no capital letter in Arabic. The word "muslim" means someone who obeys the commandments. It is in this sense that the word muslim or Muslim should be understood. When God gave the land to Abraham or Isaac or Jacob, they were neither Jews (Yehudim) nor Christians but they were obeying all the commandments. It is in this sense that God has called us "muslims" because Abraham had regarded all those with him who were obeying the commandments from God as muslims.


There are verses in the Qur'an that make the above clear.


The claim that G-d gave the land to Jews is not true. The Jews with Moses at Sinai who did not obey all the commandments never got to the holy land because the holy land was only for those who were "obeying the commandments" ("muslims") out of the Israelites.


The current usage is not correct as it is assumed that there were no muslims or Muslims before Muhammad. The same goes for Islam (Submission). It cannot be the only religion ordained by God if it began only 1400 years ago. And God does declare that the only religion ordained by Him is the islam (obeying the commandments) It began with the first creation and the first command. In Arabic, it is called al-islam (the islam).   

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2012 - 9:41PM #225
Dostojevsky
Posts: 9,063

Muslim, the one who obeys the commandments.


Ok, but it is Arabic word/idea kind of imposed on to the rest of us who identify a muslim as one who follows Islamic faith. There are no muslim Chrstians or Buddhists.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2012 - 10:33PM #226
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Aug 13, 2012 -- 9:41PM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Muslim, the one who obeys the commandments.


Ok, but it is Arabic word/idea kind of imposed on to the rest of us who identify a muslim as one who follows Islamic faith. There are no muslim Chrstians or Buddhists.


 


Islamic faith IS also obeying the commandments by having faith in Allah/God/G-d.


Nobody of us is imposing idea of obeying God's Commands as every messenger of God had preached the same thing; obey God (keep the commandments). By obeying or keeping the commandments one becomes muslim (in Arabic language). Christians or Biddhists mean followers of Christ and followers of Buddha. Followers  of Islamic faith follow God/Allah's Commands rather than Muhammad's commands. Had they been following Muhammad's commands rather than Allah's Commands they would have been known as Muhammadans.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2012 - 2:39AM #227
Dostojevsky
Posts: 9,063

Ibn, I hear you.


I am sure it is not confusing to you but it is for me.


We are having similar problem with the term anti-Semitic. Some have taken it it to mean one thing but it does not make sense to others.


I could say everyone was a Christian since A@E in accordance with the promise but it would play with people's mind; just as you or Qu-uaran is saying that everybody was muslim or is muslim while the word was coined after the Qu-uaran revelation.


If you were to say to me, you must be muslim, it would mean something totally different from you must follow the commandments. 


I am sure you must be tired of all this..i will work it out.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2012 - 3:54AM #228
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Dostojevsky,


It's a language problem.


The word "believer" in English is "momin" in Arabic. Plural of "momin" is "momineen". The early followers of prophet Muhammad were addressed as "momineen" bevause they had "believed" that revelation coming to prophet Muhammad was from Allah/God. They were called "muslims" only when they began to obey the commands from Allah/God.


Now take the same earlier process when Moses began to preach to the Israelites or when Jesus began to preach to the lost sheep of Israel, people began to "believe" first and then began to obey the Commands. They became "believers" first and then "nuslims" *in Arabic language) once they began to "obey" the Commands in the revelations. I don't know what is the equivalent of "muslim" (someone who obeys the Commands) in other languages.


Because non-Arabic speakers do not understand the real meanings of the word "muslim", they just assume that it must mean "Muhammadans", it isn't. Because they think that it means Muhammadans (followers of Muhammad) they are not going to let go of this definition of "muslims". Because they identify the term only with the followers of Muhammad, it became "Muslims" in English. Now regardless of what Muslims say, the non-muslims are going to fight tooth and nail to establish that they are not mistaken. Those of non-muslims who understand as the Muslims understand and they also obey the Commands from the Lord have no problem in regarding themselves "muslims".


 

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2012 - 1:44PM #229
JRoadrunner
Posts: 6,282

Jul 4, 2012 -- 3:28AM, Ibn wrote:


Jul 3, 2012 -- 8:26PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


Actually, he is the Imam of the largest Mosque in Italy and a leader of the Muslim community in Italy where he spends a great deal of his time speaking for and on behalf of the Italian Muslim community. And yes, he is fat. So was Pavoratti but he could still sing. Italian food is good.



He is not the imam but an ignorant imam. He does not have knowledge of both the Qur'an and the Jewish bible.




The Quran doesn't have knowledge of the Jewish bible, and neither do you are any Imam. So it's a wash. 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2012 - 3:45PM #230
TRUECHRISTIAN
Posts: 1,349

Aug 13, 2012 -- 9:41PM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Muslim, the one who obeys the commandments.


Ok, but it is Arabic word/idea kind of imposed on to the rest of us who identify a muslim as one who follows Islamic faith. There are no muslim Chrstians or Buddhists.


 




Is there are difference between the muslim and Muslim? 


What is the difference? 


Is there a difference between the words islam and Islam? 


What is the difference?  


If I understand Muslims or at least some Muslims like Ibn, Christians, and Jews and Sabeans and Zorastrians are muslim and their faith is islam because they are reffered to as "believers"in the Quran.   They are belivers in God and the scriputres-books-revelations that were given to them. 


Muslims-Islam are "believers"  who believe in the scripture-revelation that was given to Muhammad.  


Muslims are not Christians.   But they are christians?  


Well if "christian" means one who believes in the "messiah"  and Muslims believe that Jesus was a "messiah" then Muslims are christians.  


If Christians are both muslims and Christians.  Then Muslims are both christians and Muslims.


If Christians are those who follow the revelations given to  Jesus "Christ".  


Then Muslims are Mohammadians because the follow they follow the revelations given to Mohammad.  


As for wether or not the Quran says that Allah gave Isreal to the "Jews" I don't think this is "literally" true.  


 What the Quran does say is


017.104  YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell          securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings         came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.


PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in          the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall         bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.


SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the          land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to          pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.  


It "literally" says Children of Israel-Israelites.    


It does not say whose land or what land that Allah is "giving to-promising".  


But if Israelite-Children of Israel means  


"


The Israelites (בני ישראל, Standard: Bnai Yisraʾel; Tiberian: Bnai Yiśrāʾēl; ISO 259-3: Bnai Yiśraʾel) were a Semitic Hebrew-speaking people of the Ancient Near East, who inhabited part of the Land of Canaan during the tribal and monarchic periods (15th to 6th centuries BCE), later evolving into Jews and Samaritans of the classic period, inhabiting Judea and Samaria respectively. In Modern Hebrew usage, an Israelite is, broadly speaking, a lay member of the Jewish ethnoreligious community, as opposed to the priestly orders of Kohanim and Levites."


What the Quran does not "literally" say is that Allah gave the Land of Canaan to either Jews or Muslims. Neither does the Quran literally specify "Palestine".   


The Hebrew-Jewish Bible does literally speciify the Land of Canaan


If I understand the Hebrew-Jewish Bible correctly "Palestine" was part of the the Land of Canaan.


So far as I know "Palestine"  is not specifically-literally named in the Quran.   


   


  


 


 


   




 

I could be wrong.
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