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Switch to Forum Live View Qur'an says Allah gave Israel to the Jews
6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2012 - 8:47AM #201
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Jan 30, 2012 -- 9:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


Jesus, who most likely never existed, was no prophet. He was not even much of an original thinker or anything else. He is an irrelevency. 





Jan 30, 2012 -- 11:57PM, rangerken wrote:

Rocket, you realize that I really don't agreee with you about Jesus, right?


And me too.


The point to note is that there are Christian holy places in Jerusalem and Islamic holy places in Jerusalem alongside Jewish holy places. How can the Jews be trusted to respect these places if they reject both Jesus and Muhammad as prophets? 


Jan 30, 2012 -- 11:57PM, rangerken wrote:

And Muslims do accept Isa, as they call Jesus, as a prophet though not the way we Christians do, and obviously we don't accept Muhammed as a prophet, and so on and so forth.


Not accepting Muhammad as a prophet is one thing but not respecting right of abode of native Palestinians on the ground of "Israel being given to Jews only" is another thing altogether. 


Jan 30, 2012 -- 11:57PM, rangerken wrote:

Anyway, From the Old Testament I do think a case may be made that the land that is now Israel, plus areas surrounding it was indeed promised to the Hebrew tribes by God.


 The Qur'an does mention the land being given to Bani Israel at a certain point in history but both the Qur'an and the Old Testament also mention of the whole earth and the land belonging to Allah/G-d/God. The history is also witness that the land was taken away from those Bani Israel when they were no longer obeying their G-d's Commands and gave the land to other people than the tribes of Israel. Jesus was their Messiah who came to save them from the wrath of G-d for their disobedience. They did not recognize him as their Messiah and tried to kill him. As a consequence, the wrath came a few years later and the temple was destroyed. When Muslims got there, they found the holy place (where the temple was) full of garbage. They cleared it of garbage and brought it back to place fit for worship again. The case for the land being given to tribes of Israel is dead in this day and age after their Messiah's warning had been rejected.


The tribes of Israel were obeying G-d's Commands centuries ago. Then most of them broke their covenant and were cursed. They still haven't learnt their lesson and keep rejecting Jesus (pbuh).       


Jan 30, 2012 -- 11:57PM, rangerken wrote:

My Muslim neighbor and I have had some fierce, though friendly arguments about this, and when some jewish friends join in the verbosity crackles...a lot Laughing. As to what the Koran says about this...frankly, damned if I know! I  defer to Muslims to explain that. My neighbor does try himself of course...LOL.


Ken



The main thing to remember is that anyone who obeys God's Commands is going to be favoured by God for His blessings. Such people are called "muslimeen" in Arabic (Muslims in English). Centuries ago, the only people submitting to the Will of God and obeying His Commands were tribes of Israel (from sons of Jacob). They were favoured by God at the time but then they lost their way, by getting into worldly greed for money and wealth and not obeying God, and were cursed by God (as the warning given in Old Testament) and Jesus (as mentioned in the Qur'an).


Then the "chosen" tag was passed on to people in Arabia who had begun to submit their will to the Will of God. I don't think the cycle is complete yet. I see land being taken away again and again from people who do not submit to God and being given again and again to those who obey the Commands of God. The land will go to "Muslims" whether they are Jews or Arabs or Americans. Only the holy people worshipping God deserve to be in the holy land and not the money and wealth worshipping unholy people.  

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2012 - 8:51AM #202
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Jan 30, 2012 -- 9:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


Jesus, who most likely never existed, was no prophet. He was not even much of an original thinker or anything else. He is an irrelevency. 



How can someone be a prophet or not a prophet if he did not exist? Isn't it a silly remark?

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2012 - 10:12AM #203
visio
Posts: 3,743


Jan 30, 2012 -- 9:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


Jesus, who most likely never existed, was no prophet. He was not even much of an original thinker or anything else. He is an irrelevency. 




And I never expected you to say otherwise.


And now I am wondering since most UN documents are all dated using ADs, per your statements, do you think that they are valid documents, since they not interpreted in your own Jewish calendar timeline?   I am just trying to see how consistent people are in whatever beliefsystem they are commited to.


Muslims belief 100% of what are said in the Al-Quran come from Almighty God ALLAHswt an dMuhammadsaw was not the author.  There are stories/subjects in it which Muslims are to take as facts at their face value and there also those they have make judgement from their observation/contemplation within and without themselves.  And there are things wehich Muslims are encouraged to learn from people of the especially all the Prophets mentioned in the Al-Quran.  Some of those prophets were of Bani-Israel, some were not e.g Salihsaw, Shuaybsaw, Nuhsaw, Khidirsaw .....  And the latest I heard from a local Muslim-Chinese/Malay scholar, Lao-Tse could probably have been Prophet because from description of his physical features there was no indication that they were Chinese, more towards Central Asia.   There are writngs still in the ancient manuscript forms which they are still in ther process of translation/interpretation.  And Muhammadsaw were telling those Muslims of his time to seek knowledge even if they were to head for China.


Relevancy or irrelevancy on a matter is a matter or one's perception and opinion which can be used to define the scope of the person's dimension of his/her worldview. 


   

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2012 - 10:44AM #204
browbeaten
Posts: 3,484

Jan 31, 2012 -- 10:12AM, visio wrote:



Jan 30, 2012 -- 9:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


Jesus, who most likely never existed, was no prophet. He was not even much of an original thinker or anything else. He is an irrelevency. 




And I never expected you to say otherwise.


And now I am wondering since most UN documents are all dated using ADs, per your statements, do you think that they are valid documents, since they not interpreted in your own Jewish calendar timeline?   I am just trying to see how consistent people are in whatever beliefsystem they are commited to.


Muslims belief 100% of what are said in the Al-Quran come from Almighty God ALLAHswt an dMuhammadsaw was not the author.  There are stories/subjects in it which Muslims are to take as facts at their face value and there also those they have make judgement from their observation/contemplation within and without themselves.  And there are things wehich Muslims are encouraged to learn from people of the especially all the Prophets mentioned in the Al-Quran.  Some of those prophets were of Bani-Israel, some were not e.g Salihsaw, Shuaybsaw, Nuhsaw, Khidirsaw .....  And the latest I heard from a local Muslim-Chinese/Malay scholar, Lao-Tse could probably have been Prophet because from description of his physical features there was no indication that they were Chinese, more towards Central Asia.   There are writngs still in the ancient manuscript forms which they are still in ther process of translation/interpretation.  And Muhammadsaw were telling those Muslims of his time to seek knowledge even if they were to head for China.


Relevancy or irrelevancy on a matter is a matter or one's perception and opinion which can be used to define the scope of the person's dimension of his/her worldview. 


   




Two things. 


1.  The Jewish date quite easily translates to the Gregorian calendar.  We have no difficulty relating to this new, arbitrary, dating system.


2.  One's perception is still dealing with BELIEFS, not facts.




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6 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 10:58AM #205
visio
Posts: 3,743

Jan 31, 2012 -- 10:44AM, browbeaten wrote:


.................


Two things. 


1.  The Jewish date quite easily translates to the Gregorian calendar.  We have no difficulty relating to this new, arbitrary, dating system.


2.  One's perception is still dealing with BELIEFS, not facts.







1.   And the fact is the datum relates to the existence of Jesus.   Your translating and/or relating to it is an acknowledgement of his existence.  Denying this only indicates inconsistency and, perhaps, hypocrisy.


2.   When prophets are elevated to the clearest level in their consciousness and mind spectrum they see and hear things from the higher view points as facts and reality.   And for Muslims we believe what has been revealed in the Al-Quran are facts from ALLAHswt covering everything in the apparent and hidden Universe as well that is hidden in the hidden.   And I don't think the facts from ALLAHswt can be subjected to your western cartel peer-review of what are facts and what are not facts.  Simple fact is that the western cartel of facts can even create a mosquito out of nothing.  I won't say they cannot breed mosquitoes and make them pregnant.   And the fact is the facts market is to-day is a well prostituted market.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 11:34AM #206
browbeaten
Posts: 3,484

Feb 1, 2012 -- 10:58AM, visio wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 10:44AM, browbeaten wrote:


.................


Two things. 


1.  The Jewish date quite easily translates to the Gregorian calendar.  We have no difficulty relating to this new, arbitrary, dating system.


2.  One's perception is still dealing with BELIEFS, not facts.







1.   And the fact is the datum relates to the existence of Jesus.   Your translating and/or relating to it is an acknowledgement of his existence.  Denying this only indicates inconsistency and, perhaps, hypocrisy.


2.   When prophets are elevated to the clearest level in their consciousness and mind spectrum they see and hear things from the higher view points as facts and reality.   And for Muslims we believe what has been revealed in the Al-Quran are facts from ALLAHswt covering everything in the apparent and hidden Universe as well that is hidden in the hidden.   And I don't think the facts from ALLAHswt can be subjected to your western cartel peer-review of what are facts and what are not facts.  Simple fact is that the western cartel of facts can even create a mosquito out of nothing.  I won't say they cannot breed mosquitoes and make them pregnant.   And the fact is the facts market is to-day is a well prostituted market.




We live in modern times.  There is no way around using the Gregorian calendar, whether or not one believes in the existence of Jesus.  We continue to use our dating system for all our Holidays, which is why they fall on a different day of the Gregorian calendar, every year.  




Moderated by Miraj on Feb 01, 2012 - 04:30PM
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 11:58AM #207
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Feb 1, 2012 -- 11:34AM, browbeaten wrote:


Feb 1, 2012 -- 10:58AM, visio wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 10:44AM, browbeaten wrote:


.................


Two things. 


1.  The Jewish date quite easily translates to the Gregorian calendar.  We have no difficulty relating to this new, arbitrary, dating system.


2.  One's perception is still dealing with BELIEFS, not facts.







1.   And the fact is the datum relates to the existence of Jesus.   Your translating and/or relating to it is an acknowledgement of his existence.  Denying this only indicates inconsistency and, perhaps, hypocrisy.


2.   When prophets are elevated to the clearest level in their consciousness and mind spectrum they see and hear things from the higher view points as facts and reality.   And for Muslims we believe what has been revealed in the Al-Quran are facts from ALLAHswt covering everything in the apparent and hidden Universe as well that is hidden in the hidden.   And I don't think the facts from ALLAHswt can be subjected to your western cartel peer-review of what are facts and what are not facts.  Simple fact is that the western cartel of facts can even create a mosquito out of nothing.  I won't say they cannot breed mosquitoes and make them pregnant.   And the fact is the facts market is to-day is a well prostituted market.




We live in modern times.  There is no way around using the Gregorian calendar, whether or not one believes in the existence of Jesus.  We continue to use our dating system for all our Holidays, which is why they fall on a different day of the Gregorian calendar, every year.  The only hypocrisy is in your deluded attempt to quote Qur'an as fact.  Why not try and join the modern world?



Visio has a valid point. Foolish ones are those who use the dates "AD" and "BC" but still deny Jesus existed.

Moderated by Miraj on Feb 01, 2012 - 04:30PM
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 12:21PM #208
browbeaten
Posts: 3,484

Feb 1, 2012 -- 11:58AM, Ibn wrote:


Feb 1, 2012 -- 11:34AM, browbeaten wrote:


Feb 1, 2012 -- 10:58AM, visio wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 10:44AM, browbeaten wrote:


.................


Two things. 


1.  The Jewish date quite easily translates to the Gregorian calendar.  We have no difficulty relating to this new, arbitrary, dating system.


2.  One's perception is still dealing with BELIEFS, not facts.







1.   And the fact is the datum relates to the existence of Jesus.   Your translating and/or relating to it is an acknowledgement of his existence.  Denying this only indicates inconsistency and, perhaps, hypocrisy.


2.   When prophets are elevated to the clearest level in their consciousness and mind spectrum they see and hear things from the higher view points as facts and reality.   And for Muslims we believe what has been revealed in the Al-Quran are facts from ALLAHswt covering everything in the apparent and hidden Universe as well that is hidden in the hidden.   And I don't think the facts from ALLAHswt can be subjected to your western cartel peer-review of what are facts and what are not facts.  Simple fact is that the western cartel of facts can even create a mosquito out of nothing.  I won't say they cannot breed mosquitoes and make them pregnant.   And the fact is the facts market is to-day is a well prostituted market.




Visio, you are being foolish. We live in modern times.  There is no way around using the Gregorian calendar, whether or not one believes in the existence of Jesus.  We continue to use our dating system for all our Holidays, which is why they fall on a different day of the Gregorian calendar, every year.  The only hypocrisy is in your deluded attempt to quote Qur'an as fact.  Why not try and join the modern world?



Visio has a valid point. Foolish ones are those who use the dates "AD" and "BC" but still deny Jesus existed.



I rest my case.  You guys just don't get it.   Why am I not surprised?




Moderated by Miraj on Feb 01, 2012 - 04:31PM
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 12:53PM #209
BDboy
Posts: 8,220

Jan 31, 2012 -- 8:51AM, Ibn wrote:


Jan 30, 2012 -- 9:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


Jesus, who most likely never existed, was no prophet. He was not even much of an original thinker or anything else. He is an irrelevency. 



How can someone be a prophet or not a prophet if he did not exist? Isn't it a silly remark?





>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can understand if one person find Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) "irrelevent". However attempting to say he never existed is HUGE LEAP!!


Guess if you can deny Palestinians ever existed, anything is possible. It's the same crown.


We had this discussion before, click here to read it.


 

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 3:03PM #210
browbeaten
Posts: 3,484

Feb 1, 2012 -- 12:53PM, BDboy wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 8:51AM, Ibn wrote:


Jan 30, 2012 -- 9:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


Jesus, who most likely never existed, was no prophet. He was not even much of an original thinker or anything else. He is an irrelevency. 



How can someone be a prophet or not a prophet if he did not exist? Isn't it a silly remark?





>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can understand if one person find Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) "irrelevent". However attempting to say he never existed is HUGE LEAP!!


Guess if you can deny Palestinians ever existed, anything is possible. It's the same crown.


We had this discussion before, click here to read it.


 



Palestinians/Palestine never existed during the time of Jesus (whether he existed or not).







Moderated by Miraj on Feb 01, 2012 - 04:28PM
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