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Switch to Forum Live View Qur'an says Allah gave Israel to the Jews
2 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2012 - 1:28PM #181
Ibn
Posts: 4,237

Jan 29, 2012 -- 11:28AM, IDBC wrote:


Howdy Miraj


Jan 26, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Miraj wrote:


It's not really important what you used to be.



If it is not really important what he used to be then it is not important about what YOU used to be.


Jan 26, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Miraj wrote:


  Nowadays, you're not children, and Israel's certainly not what God originally had in mind.




Nowadays, YOU'RE not children either.   Although this bickering over wether or not Abraham, Moses and the "children of Israel" (who also were not "children") were "Jews" or "Muslims"  based on ancient storybooks-allegedly holy-sacred scriptures certainly makes you appear to "children". 


IF Israel is not what YHVH orignally had in mind THEN neither is the Homeland of the Prophet, the Birthplace of  relativlely Modern Islam aka Saudia Arabia, nor the rest of the so-called Holy Land that Allah gave permission for the "children of Israel" to occupy at the expense of those fierce people who were already living there.  


IF contempory Israel is not what Allah had in mind THEN neither is Arabia, or Egypt, or Jordan, or Iraq, or Iran, or Syria, or Tunisa, or Bahrain. 



IDBC,


I think this topic is too much for you to understand. We are talking about religion and Abraham who was also religious man, unlike you are.


Try telling all the rest to Iranian, Saudis, Syrian and Palestinians. They will tell you what Allah had in His mind when he created these countries just as Jews are telling us what G-d had in His mind when He gave them the land after they had been killing the natives for 40 years. 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2012 - 1:29PM #182
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Jan 29, 2012 -- 11:28AM, IDBC wrote:


 


Howdy Miraj


Jan 26, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Miraj wrote:


It's not really important what you used to be.



If it is not really important what he used to be then it is not important about what YOU used to be.


I used to be young.  Thise days are gone :-(


Jan 26, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Miraj wrote:


  Nowadays, you're not children, and Israel's certainly not what God originally had in mind.




Nowadays, YOU'RE not children either.   Although this bickering over wether or not Abraham, Moses and the "children of Israel" (who also were not "children") were "Jews" or "Muslims"  based on ancient storybooks-allegedly holy-sacred scriptures certainly makes you appear to "children". 


Hey, we're discussing our holy books on a forum about holy books.


IF Israel is not what YHVH orignally had in mind THEN neither is the Homeland of the Prophet, the Birthplace of  relativlely Modern Islam aka Saudia Arabia, nor the rest of the so-called Holy Land that Allah gave permission for the "children of Israel" to occupy at the expense of those fierce people who were already living there.  


You get no argument from me about this.  The KSA is shameful in contradictions between Islam and its culture and explotation of the faith, IMO.


IF contempory Israel is not what Allah had in mind THEN neither is Arabia, or Egypt, or Jordan, or Iraq, or Iran, or Syria, or Tunisa, or Bahrain.  


Agreed. Now what?





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2012 - 11:00PM #183
arabianwitch
Posts: 669

I don't think Allah had any country in mind. I think Allah lets us make what countries we want and then judges us on what we do in and with them.


And I am so not, not not, any sort of Islamic scholar! Kiss


Salaam,


Aisha

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2012 - 11:21PM #184
IDBC
Posts: 4,370

Howdy Ibn


 


Jan 26, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Miraj wrote:


  


I think this topic is too much for you to understand. We are talking about religion and Abraham who was also religious man, unlike you are.



You are entitled to think whatever you want you can think that however just because I don't agree with you does not mean that the topic is too much for me to understand. 


I am perfectly aware that we are talking about religion, however both Judiaism and Islam are grounded in history. That history is told in stories from the Quran and the Torah.  Those stories are different.   And the differences have led to conflicts between the Judiaism and Islam.  


The foundations of both religions are grounded in the scriptures.    As for Abraham I do not think he was a Jew because the Torah did not exist, I do not think he was a Muslim because the Quran did not exist.  The only evidence of his existence is from the Torah or the Quran.   Now I understand that both believe that this is sufficent evidence that such a person did exist. 


  

Jan 26, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Miraj wrote:


Try telling all the rest to Iranian, Saudis, Syrian and Palestinians. They will tell you what Allah had in His mind when he created these countries just as Jews are telling us what G-d had in His mind when He gave them the land after they had been killing the natives for 40 years. 




Allah nor more created the countries of Iran, Saudia Arabia, Syria, or Palestine then She she created the countries of Persia, Arabia, Assyria, Babaylon or Phylista. 


The only country or land that the Torah says that YHVH gave the "children of Israel-Jews"   is Canaan.  


YHVH gave them the land BEFORE they started wandering in the desert for forty years as punishment for straying from the...true path of YHVH by building a Golden Calf and worhsipping as a god while Moses was busy in on Mt. Sinai recieving the Torah.  These children of Israel repented and turned back to the true path of YHVH.  They did no killing of natives in while wandering.  


The men who did create the "countries" of Iran, Syria, Iraq as well as Egypt were the Allies who defeated the last Islamic-Ottoman Empire in WWI. At best these countries were semi-autonomus colonies of the Imperialist Ottoman-Islamic Empire.  


 

It was AFTER forty years of wandering the desert that the "children of Israel" began killing the fierce polytheistic idol worshipping pagan natives who already occupied Canaan. 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2012 - 4:51AM #185
Dostojevsky
Posts: 6,821

IDBC wrote:


"


It was AFTER forty years of wandering the desert that the "children of Israel" began killing the fierce polytheistic idol worshipping pagan natives who already occupied Canaan. "


Why.

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2012 - 5:19AM #186
Ibn
Posts: 4,237

Jan 29, 2012 -- 11:21PM, IDBC wrote:


The foundations of both religions are grounded in the scriptures. As for Abraham I do not think he was a Jew because the Torah did not exist, I do not think he was a Muslim because the Quran did not exist.


This is why I say the topic is too much for you. A Muslim is someone who obeys the Commands of God. For this reason, it is not the existence of the Qur'an or the Torah that matters but ANY REVELATION from God. As long as REVELATION existed with Abraham and he obeyed it, he was a Muslim.


This is also the reason religion of Children of Israel is never called "Judaism" and Jacob's sons never called "Jews" even in the Torah but followers of Abraham and sons of Israel are called Muslims in the Qur'an.


Why is it so difficult for you to understand such simple meanings of the word "Muslim"?


Muslim is not the same as Muhammadan. Too many people are thinking of Muhammadan when thinking of Muslim. 


 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2012 - 11:51AM #187
IDBC
Posts: 4,370

Howdy Dost


 


Jan 30, 2012 -- 4:51AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


IDBC wrote:


"


It was AFTER forty years of wandering the desert that the "children of Israel" began killing the fierce polytheistic idol worshipping pagan natives who already occupied Canaan. "


Why.




Read the story in the Torah and then you will find out.  


Or you can go to a Jewish forum and ask them why.  


But to answer your question I think it is because the fierce polytheistic idol worshipping pagan natives who already occupied Canaan didn't believe that Allah has the authority to give their land to someone "the children of Israel" .   The fierce polytheistic idol worshipping pagan natives who already occupied Canaan didn't even believe in One god.  They were living in ignorance like the pagans of Arabia and before Muhammad.  They had an infatada.    They fiercly resisted the "children of Israel" just as the pagans in Arabia fiercly resisted Muhammad in Mecca and the rest of Arabia.  



 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2012 - 1:29PM #188
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,513

Jan 29, 2012 -- 11:00PM, arabianwitch wrote:


I don't think Allah had any country in mind. I think Allah lets us make what countries we want and then judges us on what we do in and with them.


And I am so not, not not, any sort of Islamic scholar! Kiss


Salaam,


Aisha





Aisha


You may be the only one on this board who actually is any sort of Islamic scholar.  

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2012 - 2:14PM #189
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Jan 30, 2012 -- 1:29PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Aisha


You may be the only one on this board who actually is any sort of Islamic scholar.  




She's not.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2012 - 2:46PM #190
Ibn
Posts: 4,237

Jan 30, 2012 -- 1:29PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Jan 29, 2012 -- 11:00PM, arabianwitch wrote:


I don't think Allah had any country in mind. I think Allah lets us make what countries we want and then judges us on what we do in and with them.


And I am so not, not not, any sort of Islamic scholar! Kiss


Salaam,


Aisha




Aisha


You may be the only one on this board who actually is any sort of Islamic scholar.  



rocketjsquirell,


What do you mean by "sort of Islamic scholar" when Aisha has already told you that she is not?

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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