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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 7:47PM #41
visio
Posts: 3,250

Jan 13, 2012 -- 6:11PM, Ibn wrote:


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


this may or may not be the best place to post this article, but the writers are representatives of one of the Muslim threads of the convert or die mentality.  This is not to say, that all or even most Muslim would agree with the writers.


I did not read anything about "convert or die" mentality in there.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

I am particularly interested in how the people on this forum woud interpret the portions of the Qur'an quoted. My assumption is that their intrepretation would be different and less hostile than the one provided by the writers.



I can read Urdu. The Urdu clip from the paper included in the link provided is saying something that is not even mentioned here. And what is mentioned here is not shown in the clip. Therefore, I am not sure what the paper had said and how much of it is presented here in English.


After reading what is presented here in English, I can only assume that someone has presented here in English that is either not in context or not even true. Further, Urdu is not even the language of Uzbekistan. The paper is named Ghazwa-e-Hind meaning Battle of Hind. Hind here refers to either the wife of Abu sufyan or India (Hindustan). Hind was a Quraish woman who had travelled 325 miles from Makkah to Madina with Quraish army to attack Muslims in Madina. 70 Muslims were killed in that battle, including the uncle of Muhammad (pbuh), Hamza. Hind had cut Hamza's chest open, took his liver out and bite it between her teeth. Grave of Hamza is still there where he had died at the site of the battle. 


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Articles from Urdu Magazine of Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU): '706 Jews of Banu Quraiza Tribe were Butchered on the Prophet's Order; Therefore, By Killing the Infidels We Must Give Testimony of Our Love to Allah and His Messenger'


Fact: Prophet did not order Banu Quraiza Tribe to be butchered. The number in the tribe is unknown. They were tried under the Jewish law and the decision given by a judge agreed by the tribe (he was from a tribe that was one of Banu Quraiza's allies). 


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Allah has said in [Koran's] Chapter Anfal (Verse No. 60), 'Threaten the infidels by being prepared for jihad; threaten the enemies of Allah and your enemy'…


The translation is quite poor. It has nothing to do with either the apostates or the Jews.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

and it has been said in Chapter Tauba, Verse No. 123: 'O you who believe! Fight against those of the infidels who are close to you and let them see harshness in you...'


Nothing to do with apostates or the Jews. It was about unbelievers of Makkah who were attacking Muslims and killing them even though there was a ten year peace treaty agreed between the party. The unbelievers had broken the treaty by killing three Muslims. Order to fight those who were killers was given but it was also forbidden to attack those unbelievers who had not broken the treaty and want to have peace.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

In Chapter Fatah, Verse No. 29, Allah has described the Prophet Muhammad and his companions in these words: 'harsh against the infidels and merciful among themselves….'"


Yes, infidels is a popular word used by non-muslims. Yes they were tough against those unbelievers who were persecuting, attacking and killing them. Reference here again is to Quraish of Makkah.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

"In reference to the idolaters of Mecca, the Prophet had said, 'Swear by Allah, I have come to butcher you….'


He did not butcher any of the idolaters of Mecca. He forgave them when he had the opportunity to butcher them.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

"It should be noted that 706 Jews of Banu Quraiza tribe were butchered on the Prophet's order. Therefore, by killing the infidels we must give testimony of our love to Allah and His messenger."



The Prophet made no order to butcher Jews of Banu Quraiza. It was the Banu Quraiza that had sided with unbelievers of Mecca with intent to destroy all Muslims of Madina and failed badly. They were tried for treason under the Jewish law as had been agreed through a treaty. The judge was Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza.


I hope the above helps.


Ibn


.





To put the general scenario of the days in a simple way,  there were two groups of Hebrew in the environment of the days - followers of Jesus (nasarani) centred in and around Mecca, followers of whatever Judaism of the days, centred in and arounf Mecca.   They were considered to be the People of the Book to whom Muhammadsaw was under clear instruction to judge them in accordance to the Laws of their Books.   There is a Quranic verse to this effect. As for the rest of the Jahilia Arabs they were the infidels upon which any Quranic instruction on modes of punishements were meant to adress.   Those Arabs who have converted to the other faiths of the People of the Book of the days, they were not considered as the infidels.   But to all of them separate agreements were made but then broken.  Apostacy and traitorship just got entwined and mixed up in motivating punitive measures/action.   The fact that the various jahilia Arabic clans who went parading around the Kaaba with their various statues of their deities/idols apostacy seemed to be not a big issue among those.  There were perhaps unwritten ancient agreements between those Jahilia Arab clans that defined their tolerance (between one another) level, which they understood very well.  And Muhammadsaw knew this and he was guided by ALLAHswt to move to Medina and take his mission from there that finally ended up without bloodshed in Mecca.  And in subsequent event many converted to Islam including those Arabs who had became followers of Jesus in and around Mecca.  Death for apostacy didn't come to anyone's mind during those events and never considered by those Arabs.  Perhaps it came later when the Hebrews started converting ................. and their own Laws on apostacy to be applied.  And that was the most difficult part that the prophet had to handle that subsequently, for security reasons caused by false conversion and traitorship, he had to give an option to all the Hebrews to leave the land.


Death upon apostacy existed in many cultures pre- or post-I/Abrahamic.  In most the rules were never written down.  And thus not much went into any record.  Perhaps, it was only done among the feudal lords/kings due to the necessity of some big cakes to inherit and also to maintain family/ancestral pride.   But as Moses said, if one were to understand it deep enough, it is only good for 3 - 4 generation of one's lifetime ( 3-4 X avg. 80 yrs = 240 - 320 years) only.  After that - those spirits/souls move to different environment to further their progress/evolution.  Within one lifetime the body and blood just become dust and worms.


Only proselytizers make this a big issue due to their frustration.   Most Muslims would focus on strengthening their faith within themselves, their families, relatives and friends and learn from the only single Book that they have - The Al-Quran with of course some guidance from the treasury of Muhammadsaw's authentic hadiths.  And these are all works on top of the other well spefied mandatory works.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 8:39PM #42
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

The real Day of God is the day that Amir al mo’menin (1) drew his sword and slaughtered all the khavarej (2) and killed them from the first to the last. يوم الله واقعی روزی است كه امير المؤ منين عليه السلام ، شمشيرش را كشيد و خوارج را از اول تا به آخر درو كرد و تمامشان را كشت The Days of God are when Allah, the gracious, the almighty, causes an earthquake. ايام الله روزهائی است كه خداوند تبارك و تعالی يك زلزله ای وارد ميكند It is when He slaps on the face. يك سيلی را وارد ميكند It is when he causes a hurricane. يك توفانی را وارد ميكند He whips this people to become humans. به اين مردم شلاق ميزند كه ، آدم بشوند If the Amir al mo’menin (1) wanted to be tolerant, he would not have drawn his sword killing 700 people in one go امير المؤمنين اگر بنا بود مسامحه كند شمشير نميكشيد تا 700 نفر را يكدفعه بكشد In our prisons we have more of the same kind of people who are corrupt. در حبس های ما هم بيشتر از اين اشخاص هستند ، كه مفسدند If we do not kill them, each one of them that gets out, will become a murderer! اگر ما اينها را نكشيم ، هر يكی شان كه بيايد بيرون ميرود آدم ميكشد They don’t become humans. ... آدم نميشوند اينها Why do you Mullahs only go after the ordinances of prayer and fasting? شما ، علما چرا فقط سراغ احكام نماز و روزه ميرويد Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing? چرا هی آيات رحمت در قرآن را ميخوانيد و آيات قتال را نميخوانيد Quran says; kill, imprison! قرآن ميگويد بكشيد ، حبس كنيد Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy? چرا شما همان طرفش را گرفته ايد كه صحبت از رحمت ميكند Mercy is against God. رحمت مخالف با خداست Mehrab (3) means the place of war, the place of fighting. محراب يعنی مكان حرب ، يعنی مكان جنگ Out of the mehrabs, wars should proceed, از محرابها بايد ، جنگ پيدا شود Just as all the wars of Islam used to proceeded out of the mehrabs. چنانكه بيشتر جنگهای اسلام از محرابها پيدا ميشد The prophet has [had] sword to kill people.. پيغمبر شمشير دارد تا آدم بكشد Our [Holy] Imams were quite military men. ائمه ما همگی چندی ، نظامی بودند All of them were warriors. همگی جنگی بودند They used to wield swords; they used to kill people. شمشير ميكشيدند ، آدم ميكشتند We need a Khalifa who would chop hands, cut throat, stone people ما خليفه ميخواهيم كه دست ببرد ، حد بزند ، رجم كند In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats, and stone people. همانطور كه رسول الله دست ميبريد ، حد ميزد ، رجم ميكرد In the same way that he massacred the Jews of Bani Qurayza (4) because they were a bunch of discontent people. همانطور كه يهود بنی قريظه را ، چون جماعتی ناراضی ! ... بودند قتل عام كرد If the Prophet used to order to burn a house or exterminate a tribe that was justice. اگر رسول الله فرمان داد كه فلان خانه را آتش بزنيد ، فلان طايفه را از بين ببريد ، حكم به عدل كرده است The lives of people must be secured through punishment. زندگی بشر را بايد به قصاص تامين كرد Because, the protection of the masses lies beneath these very punitive executions. زيرا حمايت توده ، زير اين قتل قصاصی ، خوابيده است With just a few years of imprisonment things don’t get fixed. با چند سال زندان كار درست نميشود You must put aside these childish sentimentalism. اين عواطف بچه گانه را كنار بگذاريد We believe that the accused essentially does not have to be tried. He or she must just be killed. ما معتقديم كه مجرم اصولا محاكمه ندارد و بايد او را كشت Only their identity is to be established and then they should be killed. تنها بايد هويت آنان را ثابت كرد و بعد آنها را


My OP was based upon a speech by Khomeni, and what he had to say about Muhammad and early Islam in speeches, the actual speech my husband had recently listened to in Farsi on iranianUK website was from 1979, he thinks about 6 months after the Revolution, and I am still trying to find that speech in English. 


The above speech of Khomeni, from 1981, reflects how he used Muhammad's life to justify his own harsh treatment of polilitical prisoners.


He says, "Quran says, kill, imprison. Mercy is against God."


indonesian.faithfreedom.org/~faithfre/Ir...

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 4:37AM #43
Ibn
Posts: 4,788

He says, "Quran says, kill, imprison. Mercy is against God."


This simply cannot be true. Anyone who does not have mercy on others will not have mercy from God. In fact, we all depend on mercy from God as we have all done enough to be doomed. Without mercy from God, we would all perish forever.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 5:03AM #44
Ibn
Posts: 4,788

Jan 13, 2012 -- 7:47PM, visio wrote:


Jan 13, 2012 -- 6:11PM, Ibn wrote:


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


this may or may not be the best place to post this article, but the writers are representatives of one of the Muslim threads of the convert or die mentality.  This is not to say, that all or even most Muslim would agree with the writers.


I did not read anything about "convert or die" mentality in there.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

I am particularly interested in how the people on this forum woud interpret the portions of the Qur'an quoted. My assumption is that their intrepretation would be different and less hostile than the one provided by the writers.



I can read Urdu. The Urdu clip from the paper included in the link provided is saying something that is not even mentioned here. And what is mentioned here is not shown in the clip. Therefore, I am not sure what the paper had said and how much of it is presented here in English.


After reading what is presented here in English, I can only assume that someone has presented here in English that is either not in context or not even true. Further, Urdu is not even the language of Uzbekistan. The paper is named Ghazwa-e-Hind meaning Battle of Hind. Hind here refers to either the wife of Abu sufyan or India (Hindustan). Hind was a Quraish woman who had travelled 325 miles from Makkah to Madina with Quraish army to attack Muslims in Madina. 70 Muslims were killed in that battle, including the uncle of Muhammad (pbuh), Hamza. Hind had cut Hamza's chest open, took his liver out and bite it between her teeth. Grave of Hamza is still there where he had died at the site of the battle. 


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Articles from Urdu Magazine of Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU): '706 Jews of Banu Quraiza Tribe were Butchered on the Prophet's Order; Therefore, By Killing the Infidels We Must Give Testimony of Our Love to Allah and His Messenger'


Fact: Prophet did not order Banu Quraiza Tribe to be butchered. The number in the tribe is unknown. They were tried under the Jewish law and the decision given by a judge agreed by the tribe (he was from a tribe that was one of Banu Quraiza's allies). 


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Allah has said in [Koran's] Chapter Anfal (Verse No. 60), 'Threaten the infidels by being prepared for jihad; threaten the enemies of Allah and your enemy'…


The translation is quite poor. It has nothing to do with either the apostates or the Jews.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

and it has been said in Chapter Tauba, Verse No. 123: 'O you who believe! Fight against those of the infidels who are close to you and let them see harshness in you...'


Nothing to do with apostates or the Jews. It was about unbelievers of Makkah who were attacking Muslims and killing them even though there was a ten year peace treaty (treaty of Hudaibiya) agreed between the Makkans and Muslims from Madina. The unbelievers had later broken the treaty by killing three Muslims. Order to fight those who were killers was given but it was also forbidden to attack those unbelievers who had not broken the treaty and want to have peace.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

In Chapter Fatah, Verse No. 29, Allah has described the Prophet Muhammad and his companions in these words: 'harsh against the infidels and merciful among themselves….'"


Yes, infidels is a popular word used by non-muslims. Yes they were tough against those unbelievers who were persecuting, attacking and killing them. Reference here again is to Quraish of Makkah.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

"In reference to the idolaters of Mecca, the Prophet had said, 'Swear by Allah, I have come to butcher you….'


He did not butcher any of the idolaters of Mecca. He forgave them when he had the opportunity to butcher them.


Jan 12, 2012 -- 3:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

"It should be noted that 706 Jews of Banu Quraiza tribe were butchered on the Prophet's order. Therefore, by killing the infidels we must give testimony of our love to Allah and His messenger."



The Prophet made no order to butcher Jews of Banu Quraiza. It was the Banu Quraiza that had sided with unbelievers of Mecca with intent to destroy all Muslims of Madina and failed badly. They were tried for treason under the Jewish law as had been agreed through a treaty. The judge was Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza.


I hope the above helps.


Ibn




To put the general scenario of the days in a simple way,  there were two groups of Hebrew in the environment of the days - followers of Jesus (nasarani) centred in and around Mecca, followers of whatever Judaism of the days, centred in and arounf Mecca.   They were considered to be the People of the Book to whom Muhammadsaw was under clear instruction to judge them in accordance to the Laws of their Books.  



Most of the Nasrani  were living in Najran and Jews (3 main tribes) in or around Madina. The Nasrani of Najran did not attack Muslims or try to wipe the Muslims off the face of the earth but the Jews of Madina did after siding with idolaters of Makkah when they had attacked Muslims at the Trench and lost.The powerful idolaters of Makkah never recovered after that event.They were defeated not by Muslims but by God Himself.


But the issue of the Jews in Madina was not one of apostasy but of treason. They had committed treason and were judged in a court trial where the judge was not Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but someone from a tribe (Aws) that was one of the allies of the Jewish tribe. The Jews were in a treaty with Muslims in Madina not to commit such treason but they did not keep to it through their treachery. It was their treachery that made them pay the ultimate price. Punishment of death for treason is still the law in some countries even today.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 9:29AM #45
visio
Posts: 3,250

Jan 14, 2012 -- 5:03AM, Ibn wrote:


................. Most of the Nasrani  were living in Najran and Jews (3 main tribes) in or around Madina. The Nasrani of Najran did not attack Muslims or try to wipe the Muslims off the face of the earth but the Jews of Madina did after siding with idolaters of Makkah when they had attacked Muslims at the Trench and lost.The powerful idolaters of Makkah never recovered after that event.They were defeated not by Muslims but by God Himself.


But the issue of the Jews in Madina was not one of apostasy but of treason. They had committed treason and were judged in a court trial where the judge was not Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but someone from a tribe (Aws) that was one of the allies of the Jewish tribe. The Jews were in a treaty with Muslims in Madina not to commit such treason but they did not keep to it through their treachery. It was their treachery that made them pay the ultimate price. Punishment of death for treason is still the law in some countries even today.




That's correct as far as the Greater Saudi Arabia is concerned.  Pre-Islamic, it was an oasis town bordering what i snow Yemen.  It was subjected to Roman conquest as early as 25 AD and then changed hands several times between Arabs and Yemeni Kings.  As far as in around Mecca during the time of the Prophet Thaif (on the hilly outskirt of Mecca) could have a large concentration of them because that was the place where the Prophet and his followers took refuge when they were ousted from Mecca.  There is a historical account that the nasarani in Thaif was providing the Prophet and his earlier followers some cover almost for a year before the divine Command to migrate to Medina.   Part of Surah Yunus could have been revealed there initially, and rerevealed and completed in Medina.  Perhaps this led to why Indonesian version of the Al-Quran classifies this sura (Yunus) as Medinan, instead of Meccan.  The way many revelation is revealed is that verses or strings of verses do come in batches and their timings are spreaded out before their contexts are finally realised.   Those pioneers in the compilation of the Al-Quran must be divinely guided when they were given the task.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 11:38AM #46
IDBC
Posts: 4,475

 


 


Howdy Ibn


Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


He says, "Quran says, kill, imprison. Mercy is against God."


This simply cannot be true. Anyone who does not have mercy on others will not have mercy from God. In fact, we all depend on mercy from God as we have all done enough to be doomed. Without mercy from God, we would all perish forever.




 


Apparently it can be true.  Wether or not it "should" be true is a different story.


Khomeni was not an ignorant, uneducated Muslim.  He was highly educated in Islam, even though he is of the Shia race and Iranian race. 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khomeini



Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:



Most of the Nasrani  were living in Najran and Jews (3 main tribes) in or around Madina.



Members of the Christian race were living in Najran but they were not members of the Nasrani races.  "The Saint Thomas Christians, also known as the Nasrani (or Nasrani Mappila) are an ancient body of Christians from the Indian state of Kerala who trace their origins to the evangelical activity of Thomas the Apostle in the 1st century."


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrani




 


Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


 The Nasrani of Najran did not attack Muslims or try to wipe the Muslims off the face of the earth but the Jews of Madina did after siding with idolaters of Makkah when they had attacked Muslims at the Trench and lost.



Whatever the race of the Christians who were living in Narjan or in Medina they were deported-exiled-ethinically cleansed from Narjan.  


"Under the reign of the Caliph Umar, (a rightly guided  Caliph)the Christian community of Najran was deported to Mesopotamia, on the grounds that no non-Muslims were to live in the Arabian Peninsula(aka the "holy land promised by Allah to the Arab-Ishlamite-children of Israel)


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najran 



Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


The powerful idolaters of Makkah never recovered after that event.They were defeated not by Muslims but by God Himself. 



I am pretty sure that Muhammad and his helpers were involved in the Battle of the Trench. 



Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


But the issue of the Jews in Madina was not one of apostasy but of treason. They had committed treason and were judged in a court trial where the judge was not Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but someone from a tribe (Aws) that was one of the allies of the Jewish tribe.



If the Jews who were living in Madina "before" Muhammad and his helpers-companions did change sides that would make them enemy combatants and not traitors.  


The "someone" who did judge the Jews "was" an ally,  he "was"  Jew before he committed apostasy and became a Muslim and ally of Muhammad.  


 


Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


The Jews were in a treaty with Muslims in Madina not to commit such treason but they did not keep to it through their treachery. It was their treachery that made them pay the ultimate price. Punishment of death for treason is still the law in some countries even today.



While it is true that in "some" countries treason in a capital offense in "most"  countries today it is not and even in those countries that a does have the death penalty for "treason" it is rarely enforced.   


The fact remains that Muhammad was the head of the Islamic Theocracy-State as such he could have pardoned and exiled those Jews who broke the treaty.   Instead he pawned off the decison on one of his allies who was a Muslim and apostate of the Jewish religion. 


The person who was responsible for the execution of 600-900 by beheading them was a Muslim.


And there is nothing in the Torah that mandates execution for treason by beheading

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2012 - 4:04AM #47
Ibn
Posts: 4,788

Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


He says, "Quran says, kill, imprison. Mercy is against God."


This simply cannot be true. Anyone who does not have mercy on others will not have mercy from God. In fact, we all depend on mercy from God as we have all done enough to be doomed. Without mercy from God, we would all perish forever.




Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

 Apparently it can be true.  Wether or not it "should" be true is a different story.


Khomeni was not an ignorant, uneducated Muslim.  He was highly educated in Islam, even though he is of the Shia race and Iranian race. 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khomeini 


Mercy is NOT against God.



Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


Most of the Nasrani  were living in Najran and Jews (3 main tribes) in or around Madina.



Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

Members of the Christian race were living in Najran but they were not members of the Nasrani races.  "The Saint Thomas Christians, also known as the Nasrani (or Nasrani Mappila) are an ancient body of Christians from the Indian state of Kerala who trace their origins to the evangelical activity of Thomas the Apostle in the 1st century."


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrani 


FYI, Nasrani means Christians in a certain languge that you can't speak or understand but I do understand it.


Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


 The Nasrani of Najran did not attack Muslims or try to wipe the Muslims off the face of the earth but the Jews of Madina did after siding with idolaters of Makkah when they had attacked Muslims at the Trench and lost.



Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

Whatever the race of the Christians who were living in Narjan or in Medina they were deported-exiled-ethinically cleansed from Narjan.


Not by Muhammad or in his lifetime.  


Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


The powerful idolaters of Makkah never recovered after that event.They were defeated not by Muslims but by God Himself. 



Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

I am pretty sure that Muhammad and his helpers were involved in the Battle of the Trench.


Only two people had actually taken part in the battle (fighting). One died and the other survived, alhamdulillah. The rest, including Muhammad, were there across the trench but took no part in the battle. 


Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


But the issue of the Jews in Madina was not one of apostasy but of treason. They had committed treason and were judged in a court trial where the judge was not Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but someone from a tribe (Aws) that was one of the allies of the Jewish tribe.



Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

If the Jews who were living in Madina "before" Muhammad and his helpers-companions did change sides that would make them enemy combatants and not traitors.


They were all citizens of the same State under the agreement made earlier on. Therefore, they were traitors.  


Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

The "someone" who did judge the Jews "was" an ally,  he "was"  Jew before he committed apostasy and became a Muslim and ally of Muhammad.


Jews were happy for him to be the judge. He was chosen with the agreement of Jews.  


Jan 14, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Ibn wrote:


The Jews were in a treaty with Muslims in Madina not to commit such treason but they did not keep to it through their treachery. It was their treachery that made them pay the ultimate price. Punishment of death for treason is still the law in some countries even today.



Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

While it is true that in "some" countries treason in a capital offense in "most"  countries today it is not and even in those countries that a does have the death penalty for "treason" it is rarely enforced. 


 Try to actually demonstrate your point in USA or Saudi Arabia!  


Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

The fact remains that Muhammad was the head of the Islamic Theocracy-State as such he could have pardoned and exiled those Jews who broke the treaty.   Instead he pawned off the decison on one of his allies who was a Muslim and apostate of the Jewish religion.


 The "apostate" of Jewish religion knew the Jewish law well and treaty required such cases to be decided by the Jewish law. Muhammad was only going by the treaty terms. Had the Jews left it to Muhammad to decide, the decision could have been different. 


Jan 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, IDBC wrote:

The person who was responsible for the execution of 600-900 by beheading them was a Muslim.


And there is nothing in the Torah that mandates execution for treason by beheading



You can't kill anyone by giving him sugar. Lethal injections were not possible at the time.  

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2012 - 1:35PM #48
BDboy
Posts: 5,449

Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:19PM, LeahOne wrote:


BD, a suggestion for you:  Read 'The True Believer' by Eric Hoffer.  It will explain just how something like that works.  The classic is the Reichstag fire....  That the Iranian 'inner circle' would sacrifice one of their nuclear scientists to invent a 'reason' to go after Israel is not so far-fetched.


Just because Hoffer wrote in the '50's and his examples involved Nazi Germany - his  work applies to many, many groups and 'movements'.....




 


>>>>>>>>> If it was just one case, I could have accepted your point. But 3-4 scientists were either murdered or went missing from Iran. And MO is very known to people of that region.


They have seen this "Movie" over and over for decades. Fingerprints are all over....

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2012 - 3:06PM #49
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,756

Jan 16, 2012 -- 1:35PM, BDboy wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:19PM, LeahOne wrote:


BD, a suggestion for you:  Read 'The True Believer' by Eric Hoffer.  It will explain just how something like that works.  The classic is the Reichstag fire....  That the Iranian 'inner circle' would sacrifice one of their nuclear scientists to invent a 'reason' to go after Israel is not so far-fetched.


Just because Hoffer wrote in the '50's and his examples involved Nazi Germany - his  work applies to many, many groups and 'movements'.....




 


>>>>>>>>> If it was just one case, I could have accepted your point. But 3-4 scientists were either murdered or went missing from Iran. And MO is very known to people of that region.


They have seen this "Movie" over and over for decades. Fingerprints are all over....




BD


That MO is used by everyone. It is a particular favorite of La Cosa Nostra, who more or less invented it. So do you think it was a mob hit? It has all the earmarks of one. I hate to say it, but stopping Iran is in the interested of every country in the Middle East and the Indian Sub- continent, as well as our friends in Russia and former Soviet Republics and everyone else who has a strtategic interest in the area (which is everyone with the possible exception of some undiscovered Amazon tribe) 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2012 - 3:06PM #50
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,756

Ibn


thanks for the explanation

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