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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2011 - 9:50AM #1
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492
My husband grew up in Iran, he was raised as a Shiite Muslim in Broujerd, Iran. Today, he rejects religion altogether. He was telling me this morning a story about Muhammed winning a big battle against Jewish tribes and then killing those who would not convert to Islam. Robert Fisk has written about Suffi Muslims who have ethnically cleansed villages in Afghanistan of Shiite Muslims who have refused to convert to Sunni beliefs, and these persons look like people who perhaps see themselves as following Muhammed's example from the above story.


My question is this, this concept of convert to Islam or die, to what extent is it part of Islam today?


And how do Muslims who reject these concepts justify not following Muhammed's example from the story above?


I am a Christian, I reject war completely because Jesus tells me to love my enemy, and that is Jesus example for me and Christians to follow. I do fully acknowledge many Christians today completely do not obey Jesus commands about violence and war.    
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2011 - 12:07PM #2
Aka_me
Posts: 11,935

definitely a very complicated topic, requiring a historical context of the culture and times in which Islam arose. one that I am not qualified to adequately explain.


there is a certain comparison to be made to the Christian crusades, inquisitions, and conquistadors.


those were different times. people were told, and believed, interpretations different from what we understand and believe today.


aside from JOINING Islam... there is another perspective of LEAVING Islam.


the explanations given for killing someone who leaves Islam applied to a previous dispensation (when war was common)


and do not relate to this dispensation. however, that does not stop people from creating the interpretation that they should STILL kill people today for leaving Islam.


my opinion is that abstract reasoning must be applied to see and understand the reasoning for the instructions "for the dispensation" in which the words were spoken, and realize today is a new and different dispensation.

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2011 - 2:17PM #3
BDboy
Posts: 5,163

Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

My husband grew up in Iran, he was raised as a Shiite Muslim in Broujerd, Iran. Today, he rejects religion altogether. He was telling me this morning a story about Muhammed winning a big battle against Jewish tribes and then killing those who would not convert to Islam. Robert Fisk has written about Suffi Muslims who have ethnically cleansed villages in Afghanistan of Shiite Muslims who have refused to convert to Sunni beliefs, and these persons look like people who perhaps see themselves as following Muhammed's example from the above story.


My question is this, this concept of convert to Islam or die, to what extent is it part of Islam today?


And how do Muslims who reject these concepts justify not following Muhammed's example from the story above?


I am a Christian, I reject war completely because Jesus tells me to love my enemy, and that is Jesus example for me and Christians to follow. I do fully acknowledge many Christians today completely do not obey Jesus commands about violence and war.    



 


>>>>>>>> Welcome to this board Sherry!!


While the "Jewish story" is "Partly" true but 100% misunderstood because of lack of context to that text.


I'll supply some background of that story and if you have more questions about it, feel free to ask.


First of all, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was invited by people of Medina which included Jewish people, Muslims and idol worshippers. They were fighting each other constantly and wanted a peacemaker like Muhammad (PBUH) to rule over them. Eventually Muhammad (PBUH) offered a charter for the city of Medina and gave protection to Jewish tribes as long they did not aid or joined those who wanted to attack people of medina.


However after both parties maintained their pledges, tribe of Bani Quraiza broke their pledges ( By joining with idol worshippers when they attacked Media during battle of trenches) and prophet (PBUH) only acted according to the contract they signed with Muslims. He even allowed people of that tribe to pick their own judge.


As you know even today, the US law for treason is death.


For a more detailed explanation, please click here


One important thing to note that, it had no relation to converting Jews to Islam. In fact those Jews lived in peace with Muslims after signing the medina treaty. However Meccan leaders were able to push them into commit treason with people of Medina. Which meant they had to face court. Muhammad (PBUH) was trying to going easy on them by allowing them to pick their own judge. However when judge gave his orders, he only obleyed the court.


I do not know how much you know about Sufism. But among non-Muslim scholars it is probably known as most peaceful teaching of Islam. I am sure there might have been some conflicts among Shia and sunni Muslims. While Shia belt is backed by Iran and Saudi Arabia backs Sunni movements in arabs countries. Also note, only 20% of Muslim population are arabs and most non-arabs are sunni Muslims. Personally I reject overly leaning of sects or certain teachings. As long we stay true Allah's message in the Qur'an and follow last prophet Muhammad (PBUH), certain interpretations or emphasis does not bother me much.


For a brief intro to Sufi concept (It is not a different religion or sect), please click here.


Islam clearly says, NO one can be forced to accept Islam. Allah does NOT accept such conversions. [ Source: Al Qur'an 2:256]


As you keep up with world affairs better than most people I know. I do not wish to defend any criminals who happens to have Muslim names. My scripture tells me what God wants us to follow and that is enough for me.


If any pervert want to kill bunch people but want to blame Islam or noble prophet Muhammad (PBUH) for it, it is his/her own problem. Mindless killings has NO link to Islam or Muhammad (PBUH).


If you want to have some basic idea about Muhammad(PBUH), you may want to obtain the following book.


 


Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources [Paperback]


Martin Lings


 


As far your religion is concern, please do not worry about that. Just ask away your questions and we'll try help you with information. Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) is  a central character of Islam as well.


Hope this helps you a bit.


Salaam (May peace be unto you!).

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2011 - 2:48PM #4
Ibn
Posts: 4,453

Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

My husband grew up in Iran, he was raised as a Shiite Muslim in Broujerd, Iran. Today, he rejects religion altogether. He was telling me this morning a story about Muhammed winning a big battle against Jewish tribes and then killing those who would not convert to Islam.


There was no "big battle" and Muhammad killing those who would not convert. Your husband hasn't told you the whole truth. When Muhammad was forced to leave Makkah by his enemies and he went to Yasrib (now Madina), the first thing he did was to establish a treaty with Jews. In the treaty, one of the terms was that the Jews will keep their religion and even be judged in any criminal or civil case by the Jewish law. Muhammad had accepted this term.This of course did not mean that a Jew could not convert to islam if he wanted to do that by his own will. Because of that treaty, Muhammad forced no Jew to convert.


Ask your husband as to which "big battle" is he referring to?  


Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

Robert Fisk has written about Suffi Muslims who have ethnically cleansed villages in Afghanistan of Shiite Muslims who have refused to convert to Sunni beliefs, and these persons look like people who perhaps see themselves as following Muhammed's example from the above story.


Do you think that the same is happening in Iraq because of ethnic cleansing or because of Muhammad's example of killing all the Shiite of his time?


Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

My question is this, this concept of convert to Islam or die, to what extent is it part of Islam today?


It is not part of Islam. 


Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

And how do Muslims who reject these concepts justify not following Muhammed's example from the story above?


Because there was no such example.


Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

I am a Christian, I reject war completely because Jesus tells me to love my enemy, and that is Jesus example for me and Christians to follow. I do fully acknowledge many Christians today completely do not obey Jesus commands about violence and war.


although you are Christian, you can't do what jesus said his follower can do. The reason he had given for his followers being unable to do was their lack of faith.


Peace


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2011 - 7:27PM #5
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Hi, Sherri!  Weclone to DI!  Insha'allah, you'll enjoy your time spent with us.


Islam recognizes Jesus (pbuh) and his teachings, too.  He is one of our most revered prophets of God (swt).  We don't worship him as God, but there is nothing in his teachings that contradicts what we are taught as Muslims. 


Islam is a faith that requires willfully submitting to God's directives and to furthering His intent for us.  Early Judaism, Christianity and Islam all spoke harshly against apostacy because they relied upon cohesion for safety and to grow their respective communities.  


Allah say in the Quran that there is no compulsion in religion.  He also says that, if He had wished, He could have easily made us all to believe the same, but He chose not to because His plan is that we learn to live in harmony despite our differences.


The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had a son-in-law who not only didn't convert, but he also fought against the Muslims and was captured.  He wasn't killed for refusing to convert.  Persecuted Muslims sought refuge among Christians in Abysinnia, they had allies among non-Muslims of all kinds, including Muhammad's guardian, his Uncle Abu Talib, who never converted to Islam.  Within the community of Muslims on the Arabian penninsula, there were spouses among Muslim converts who did not convert.  


Murdering someone who refuses to convert is antithetical to that mission and to honest practice.  Even during battle, the Quran instructs that Muslims are to find the good in each captive, if there is any, and to let them go free.  The animosity between the early Arab Muslims and the merchants of Mecca cost many lives on both sides.  Each side desired to change the other to their side.  Despite that, history shows that they managed to live side by side for hundreds of years, not wiping each other out.


I hope this helps.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2011 - 8:22PM #6
visio
Posts: 3,232

Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

My husband grew up in Iran, he was raised as a Shiite Muslim in Broujerd, Iran. Today, he rejects religion altogether.



He has a deep real reason which is a privy to himself. 


He was telling me this morning a story about Muhammed winning a big battle against Jewish tribes and then killing those who would not convert to Islam.



If he was referring to the Muslim siege on Bani Quraizah which took place after the Battle of the Trench followed by the discovery of 1500 swords, 2000 spears and 500 battle dress in their preparation, then there is this two information from Arabic sources of their sirrah that anyone - Muslim or non-Muslims needs to think deep.


1.   In one afternoon, immediately after the victory in the Battle of the Trench, the Prophet was about to have rest and prepare for the mid-day prayer.   Suddenly his familiar Gabriel appeared in voices saying:   "Why must you (be thinking) want to lay down and withdraw all your military arm?   Wake up and with your personnel and leave for (the settlement) of Bani Quraizah.   I'll be in front of you all and I'll shake their walls, and I'll paralyse them with great fear in their hearts."


2.   The siege was intended as a battle of psyche.  The people of Bani Quraizah was surrounded and finally surrendered.   Neither from Muhammadsaw nor any other in the Muslim party was talking about converting.   It was the Bani Quraizah leader, Ka'ab Bin Asad, who proposed 3 option to his people.


i.   Accept the prophethood of Muhammadsaw.


ii.  Kill all their women and children and fight the Muslim forces till the end.


iii. Attack the Muslim forces ignoring that it was their sabbath.


The people rejected all the three options and surrendered.   However among them there were 700 who opposed.   There were isolated and led to a place for death sentences.  Some  of them surrendered and expressed their desire to convert, and were released.  The women and children were separated and isolated to other settlements.


The moral in the detail of this bit of history or story is that the whole campaign was led and guided by Gabriel (the veil of ALLAHswt).   Any consequential death is unfortunate but as a Muslim would say it was the will of ALLAHswt.  As it were from Muhammadsaw's standpoint his external jihad was specifically guided for the strict purpose of upholding the faith.


In to-day's world, before any Muslim would declare a Jihad, he/she/they must proof to ALLAHswt that they are doing it for the Faith and that they are divinely guided.  Saying the mantra ALLAH AKBAR can only take effect after divine guidance is received and not before it.  The road for a Muslim community to declare a Jihad had been closed by the demise of the Prophet.   No Muslim, sufi or non-sufi, had any right to declare the Jihad based on Faith.  Because Muhammadsaw's mission and covenant with ALLAHswt, he had fulfilled.


Robert Fisk has written about Suffi Muslims who have ethnically cleansed villages in Afghanistan of Shiite Muslims who have refused to convert to Sunni beliefs, and these persons look like people who perhaps see themselves as following Muhammed's example from the above story.



Do not be fooled by the term sufi Muslims.  No one is so sure that he/she had "met" his/her Gabriel/Gabriella.  Even if he/she had it is at the level of what the late Ibn 'Arabi referred to as the level of the "solitary ones" (afrad).  That it was only in the matter of general prophecy and not legislative. Any of the opinion in the general prophecy is non-binding and debatable. 


My question is this, this concept of convert to Islam or die, to what extent is it part of Islam today?



It was never and never will be part of Islam.  It is stated clearly in the Al-Quran. Period.   Even apostacy is not.  It is that culture/family elemental factor that is constantly dragged into it.


And how do Muslims who reject these concepts justify not following Muhammed's example from the story above?



There are those who are out to seek perfection in their faith.   There are also those who are not.  Muslim parents, however, have the burden of instilling the spirit of Islam in their offsprings.   This is one of the most important subject to be accounted for in the Barzakh (after death state/judgement day).  



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3 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2011 - 12:03AM #7
Al-Fatihah
Posts: 1,326

Dec 22, 2011 -- 9:50AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

My husband grew up in Iran, he was raised as a Shiite Muslim in Broujerd, Iran. Today, he rejects religion altogether. He was telling me this morning a story about Muhammed winning a big battle against Jewish tribes and then killing those who would not convert to Islam. Robert Fisk has written about Suffi Muslims who have ethnically cleansed villages in Afghanistan of Shiite Muslims who have refused to convert to Sunni beliefs, and these persons look like people who perhaps see themselves as following Muhammed's example from the above story.


My question is this, this concept of convert to Islam or die, to what extent is it part of Islam today?


And how do Muslims who reject these concepts justify not following Muhammed's example from the story above?


I am a Christian, I reject war completely because Jesus tells me to love my enemy, and that is Jesus example for me and Christians to follow. I do fully acknowledge many Christians today completely do not obey Jesus commands about violence and war.    




Response: None of it is the teaching of islam. The Qur'an clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). Muhmmad (saw) possessed the most humbe, decent, and modest of character. Thus the above example is not an example of Muhammad at all, proven by the Qur'an and Sunnah itself.

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2011 - 8:40AM #8
Kinky.christian
Posts: 262

The penalty for apostasy is death.


Watch from 6:45 onwards.


I can give numerous additional sources.


Only a minority of Muslims appear to believe that the penalty for apostasy is not death.


See also this Pew Global study:


Rising Restrictions on Religion


As of mid-2009, 59 countries (30%) had a law, rule or policy at some level of government forbidding blasphemy (remarks or writings considered to be contemptuous of God), apostasy (abandoning one’s faith) or defamation (disparagement or criticism) of particular religions or religion in general. Penalties for violating these laws, ranging from fines to imprisonment to death, were enforced in 44 of the 59 countries.




And  this also from Pew Global:


Percentage of people who favour the death penalty for those leaving Islam: 


Egypt: 84%


Jordan: 86%


Pakistan: 76%


Turkey: 5%


For a kafir like me who does not believe in Islam, Islam is what Muslims believe and do. Plainly most Muslims believe in the death penalty for apostasy.






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3 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2011 - 1:36PM #9
BDboy
Posts: 5,163

Dec 23, 2011 -- 8:40AM, Kinky.christian wrote:


The penalty for apostasy is death.


Watch from 6:45 onwards.


I can give numerous additional sources.


Only a minority of Muslims appear to believe that the penalty for apostasy is not death.


See also this Pew Global study:


Rising Restrictions on Religion


As of mid-2009, 59 countries (30%) had a law, rule or policy at some level of government forbidding blasphemy (remarks or writings considered to be contemptuous of God), apostasy (abandoning one’s faith) or defamation (disparagement or criticism) of particular religions or religion in general. Penalties for violating these laws, ranging from fines to imprisonment to death, were enforced in 44 of the 59 countries.




And  this also from Pew Global:


Percentage of people who favour the death penalty for those leaving Islam: 


Egypt: 84%


Jordan: 86%


Pakistan: 76%


Turkey: 5%


For a kafir like me who does not believe in Islam, Islam is what Muslims believe and do. Plainly most Muslims believe in the death penalty for apostasy.









 


>>>>>>>>>> I have not discussed apostasy yet. Sherry asked about relations with a certain arabian Jewish tribe. Also talked about Shia and Sunni Muslims.


Another concern was IF Islam permitted conversion by force. The answer is clear NO. [ Source: Al Qur'an 2:256]


Apostasy has been recently discussed and there are differences of opinions on that topic. You can take a look. Earlier I have quoted Hadiths and well known globally recognized scholars of Islam about this topic.


Take a look. ALSO do your own research how many people died for not practicing Islam OR leaving Islam and converting to a different religion. I am sure you will not find many cases (From around 1.7BILLION global population).


In many Muslim communities people cnverted out of Islam. I have not heard much about it. One of my friend (Who is a blind man) told me Christian missionaries went to many war torn Muslim countries and targeted blind men for conversion and got some followers out of it. I have not heard any problem with it and those "New Christians" holding good positions in different NGOs (Proxy missions, also known as non-government organizations) around the world.


Do understand there are Muslims who often break Islamic laws and sometime makes honest mistakes as well. So just by citing some poll does NOT makes it halal. It has to be backed by scriptures and authentic teaching of Islam!!


For example, Saudi Arabia does not allow ( They may in near future) women to drive in that country. It is their own interpretation of Islamic laws/codes (Sharia) of modesty. However around 56 other Muslim majority nations do not support that interpretation of modesty (Including all neighbors of Saudi Arabia).


another common perception about Islam is "Death penalty". Fact is Qur'an reserved death penalty as punishment (Like Biblical and US laws) but ALSO offers an option to forgive. So it says it is better to forgive.


 


And We ordained for them in [the Torah]: “Person for person, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if anyone remits the retaliation as charity, it shall be an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, such are the transgressors (zalimun)[6].


(Source: Al Qur'an 5:45


 


he above verse refers to what God commanded the Jews through the Torah, but in the following verse the Qur`an gives a more balanced law to the Muslims:



O you who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if one (who killed) is forgiven by the brother of (the one killed) against ransom, there should be follow up in fairness and payment to the heir in handsome gratitude. This is a concession from your Lord and a mercy (from him). Then whoever exceeds the limit (of the ransom agreement) after this he shall have a painful chastisement.


(Source: Al Qur'an 2:178)



Again there is no mandatory death penalty. If the relatives of the murdered person accept ransom, the death penalty can be removed.


 


Hence: a) there is no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime; and b) since the Qur`an does not prescribe the death penalty even for crimes more serious than simple apostasy, death penalty for apostasy as such has no place within the Qur`anic perspective.


 


.................Thus according to the Qur`an the apostates are to be treated like other kuffar: If they want to live in peace with the Muslims, they are to be left in peace and if they assume a hostile attitude, then they are to be treated accordingly.


 


[ Source: THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM Part I: The Qur`anic Perspective By  Dr. Ahmad Shafaat ]


 


in other words, killing is NOT permitted for simple conversion out of Islam. However if someone works against Islam and Muslims along with conversion (For example, when there is a war going on between Muslims and non-Muslims), killing is accepted. Because in modern term, it is treason and even 21st century US law says, death penalty for such person.


 


There is no compulsion in religion. Right has become distinct from wrong. So whoever rejects evil and puts faith in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God is hearing, knowing.


 


(Source: Al Qur'an 2:256)



 


However, you are free to accept whatever makes sense to you. We can only offer you information and answer to your questions/concerns.


Hope this helps.




 

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2011 - 4:02PM #10
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Dec 23, 2011 -- 8:40AM, Kinky.christian wrote:


The penalty for apostasy is death.


Watch from 6:45 onwards.


I can give numerous additional sources.


Only a minority of Muslims appear to believe that the penalty for apostasy is not death.


See also this Pew Global study:


Rising Restrictions on Religion


As of mid-2009, 59 countries (30%) had a law, rule or policy at some level of government forbidding blasphemy (remarks or writings considered to be contemptuous of God), apostasy (abandoning one’s faith) or defamation (disparagement or criticism) of particular religions or religion in general. Penalties for violating these laws, ranging from fines to imprisonment to death, were enforced in 44 of the 59 countries.




And  this also from Pew Global:


Percentage of people who favour the death penalty for those leaving Islam: 


Egypt: 84%


Jordan: 86%


Pakistan: 76%


Turkey: 5%


For a kafir like me who does not believe in Islam, Islam is what Muslims believe and do. Plainly most Muslims believe in the death penalty for apostasy.



Islam is what God tells us it is.  Frankly, we won't know who the real Muslims are until the Day of Judgement when God decides who makes the cut, so it's crazy to believe that individual Muslims from a poll define Islam.  Christians have believed that Jews should be wiped off the face of the earth, and acted on it, but that didn't mean that didn't define what Christianity teaches.  49% of Jewish Israelis believe that I should be stripped of my Israeli citizenship because I'm not Jewish, but that doesn't define Judaism.  That kind of logic is only applied to Islam, but since it's singular logic, it doesn't hold water.


Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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