8) He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.

Mark 15:1-2 “Immediately, in the morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council; and they bound Jesus, led Him away, and delivered Him to Pilate. Then Pilate asked Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" ~ NKJV

John 19:19-20  Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Matt 27:57-61 Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him. When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed.”

1 Peter 2:22-25 "Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth"; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.

9) I believe Jesus’ soul descended into Hades, where He proclaimed victory over the devil, loosed the captives of Death and Hades, and on the third day - rose from the dead and appeared to His disciples.

Luke 16:22-23 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. ~ NKJV

1 Peter 3:18-20 “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison… ~ NKJV

Acts 2:29-33 "He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,  David, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.”

1 Peter 4:5-6 “They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Rev 1:17-18 "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. ~ NKJV

Matt 27:51-53 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Col 2:13-15 “He has made (us) alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. ~ NKJV

Eph 4:8-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended" - what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) ~ NKJV

10) on the third day He rose from the dead. Afterwards He appeared to His disciples…

1 Cor 15:3-8 “For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.”

Acts 10:39-42 “And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.” ~ NKJV

11) And I believe Jesus redeemed all mankind by His death and resurrection, thereby setting the captives of Hades free and He took captivity captive when He ascended to heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Peter 3:21-22 “…through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Rev 5:8-10 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed *us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made *them kings and priests to our God; and *they shall reign on the earth." Note: Text corrected according to the Majority Greek Text.

Heb 10:12-14 “But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. ~ NKJV

John 1:29-30 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 Rom 5:18-19 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.”

Gal 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

12) And I believe in the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God and of Christ.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 

Acts 2:33 “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.”

Rom 8:9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.”

Rom 8:14-17 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..”

Rom 8:9-10 “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. ~ NKJV

1 Peter 1:10-12 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. ~ NKJV

13) And I believe that Jesus shall come again to judge the living and the dead and to establish His earthly reign.

John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” ~ NKJV

Acts 10:42-43 … it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. ~ NKJV

2 Tim 4:1-2 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom…” ~ NKJV

Matt 19:28-29 So Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” ~ NKJV

Matt 24:30-31 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ~ NKJV

Luke 21:27-28 “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." ~ NKJV

Mark 14:62-64 Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?" ~ NKJV

~ Theophilus

Dec 11, 2011 -- 2:50PM, Theo wrote:

8) He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.He suffered  under Pontius Pilate,  was   impaled  on  a  stake,  died  and  was  buried.

Mark 15:1-2 “Immediately, in the morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council; and they bound Jesus, led Him away, and delivered Him to Pilate. Then Pilate asked Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" ~ NKJV

John 19:19-20  Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Matt 27:57-61 Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him. When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed.”

1 Peter 2:22-25 "Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth"; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.

9) I believe Jesus’ soul descended into Hades, where He proclaimed victory over the devil, loosed the captives of Death and Hades, and on the third day - rose from the dead and appeared to His disciples.Jesus  died and  went  to  Hades  as  do  all  dead  people.  Jehovah  resurrected  him  on  the  third  day  and  he  appeared  to  his  disciples.

1 Peter 3:18-20 “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison… ~ NKJV

Acts 2:29-33 "He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,  David, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.”

1 Peter 4:5-6 “They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Rev 1:17-18 "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. ~ NKJV

Matt 27:51-53 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Col 2:13-15 “He has made (us) alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. ~ NKJV

Eph 4:8-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended" - what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) ~ NKJV

10) on the third day He rose from the dead. Afterwards He appeared to His disciples…already  stated  but  the  following  are  good  scriptures  to prove  this  statement

1 Cor 15:3-8 “For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.”

Acts 10:39-42 “And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.” ~ NKJV

11) And I believe Jesus redeemed all mankind by His death and resurrection, thereby setting the captives of Hades free and He took captivity captive when He ascended to heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.Jesus  redeemed  all   mankind  that  exercies  faith  in  his  ransom  sacrifice  and  gave  an  unbreakable  guarantee  by  his  own  resurrectionl   All authority  was  given  him,  so  that  he  now  had  absolute  authority  over  death  and  Hades.

1 Peter 3:21-22 “…through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Rev 5:8-10 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed *us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made *them kings and priests to our God; and *they shall reign on the earth." Note: Text corrected according to the Majority Greek Text.

Heb 10:12-14 “But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. ~ NKJV

John 1:29-30 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 Rom 5:18-19 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.”

Gal 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

12) And I believe in the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God and of Christ.I  believe  in  the  holy  spirit.  This  is  the  spirit  of  God,  but  he  can  give  it  to  anyone  that  he  wishes. 

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 

Acts 2:33 “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.”

Rom 8:9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.”

Rom 8:14-17 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..”

Rom 8:9-10 “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. ~ NKJV

1 Peter 1:10-12 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. ~ NKJV

13) And I believe that Jesus shall come again to judge the living and the dead and to establish His earthly reign.And  I  believe  that  Jesus  shall  come  again  to  judge  the  living  and  the  dead  and  to  establish  his  earthly  reign.

John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” ~ NKJV

Acts 10:42-43 … it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. ~ NKJV

2 Tim 4:1-2 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom…” ~ NKJV

Matt 19:28-29 So Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” ~ NKJV

Matt 24:30-31 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ~ NKJV

Luke 21:27-28 “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." ~ NKJV

Mark 14:62-64 Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?" ~ NKJV

 

~ Theophilus

Thank  you  Theo,  for  writing  the  scriptures  out  for  me.

with  affection  from  Marken

Theo,

This was posted on another thread. Not sure if you saw it.

Oeste

Greetings Theo,
   >>[BAR]: And then Theo posts a list which again is just personal theological opinion and each one can be proven to be incorrect when compared with what the Bible really teaches! For instance he claims that the Trinity being false and Christ being created are not taught in the Bible. Yet, both these things have been repeatedly proved to be EXACTLY what the Bible teaches!<<
    >[Theo]: Fortunately I will have plenty of free time over the holidays, so I welcome any challenge to compare my personal opinions about what the Bible teaches with Scripture. When I challenge JWs directly over some point of disagreement, I always represent Scripture for what it says… Are you willing to set aside your ingrained JW opinions about things the Bible does not talk about… like the Trinity and 1914 for example, and deal with Scripture alone?<
I don’t have unlimited time, but I’m very willing to examine current beliefs using the Bible as the final authority. I use standard principles of exegesis and common reference works. Witnesses do not need the WTS’s literature to prove their beliefs.
But quite honestly, saying the Bible does not “talk about the Trinity and 1914" is about as logical as saying the Bible doesn’t talk about killing people with guns.
But, send me the link if you start a thread on any point of disagreement regarding our beliefs.
baranerges@gmail.com
Yours,
BAR-ANERGES

Son of thunder - I am still waiting for you to bury this thread under a blanket of distracting unrelated posts. Do you need an engraved invitation? A friendly invite is not enough?

~ Theophilus

Greetings,

    >[Theo]: The following is a Biblical Confession of Faith based loosely on the Nicene Creed, with the “non – un – or extra”- biblical terms excluded,....This will be the third time I’ve posted similar presentations on this forum, in an attempt to reach JWs with the truth of Scripture. I post it this time to give some an opportunity to directly consider the issues raised by areas of JW disagreement with Holy Scripture.<

Theo, you should have taken a hint from the fact that you had to remove the “non-biblical terms from the basis of your “confession of faith.” Because the only result from starting with what you admittedly confess was a flawed and unscriptural statement will be that somewhere the rest also will misuse and misinterpret God’s Word!

Jehovah’s Witnesses accept “truth of Scripture” without reservation and their beliefs have no disagreement with Holy Scripture. You should have started with the “creedal statements” found in God’s Word itself rather than such a suspect document!

True Christians do not go to faulty extra-biblical statements to explain their belief. The Scriptures are quite plain:

1.)  1Corinthians 8:6: "Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

2.) 1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men.”

3.) Deuteronomy 6:4: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."

4.) Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit–– just as you were called to one hope when you were called–– one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

5.) Jn.17:3: “And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

The Witnesses’ theology is taught explicitly and clearly in these "creeds" from Scripture! And the rest of their doctrines are based on explicit statements of Scripture. All our beliefs are in accord with the rules of exegesis and do not force interpretations into God’s Word.

Now I think, with minor adjustments, we can agree on most of your statements with the exception of one glaring example of eisegesis:

    >1) I believe in God: our Father in heaven, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son and our Lord, and in the Holy Spirit. One God and Father of all, one Lord, Jesus Christ the Son of the Father, and one Spirit.<

    >3) God created all things through His Son (i.e. Jesus) by the Holy Spirit:<

    >4) And I believe God sent His only begotten Son into the world.<

    >5) The Son of God was manifested in the flesh:<

We agree completely with this one. However, your citing the spurious reading of 1 Tim 3:16 in support of this not only contradicts this explicit statement but causes a contradiction in the rest of Gods Word as to who “became flesh.” This fact is definite proof that the Majority Text cannot be correct.

    >6) Jesus was born of a virgin of the house of David:<

    >7) But Jesus was rejected by the leaders of His people…<

    >8) He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.<

    >9) I believe Jesus’ soul descended into Hades, where He proclaimed victory over the devil, loosed the captives of Death and Hades, and on the third day - rose from the dead and appeared to His disciples.<

We agree with this with the exception of the implication of an immortal soul due to the misinterpretation of Peter’s words insinuating that Christ preached *while* he was in Hades instead of *after* he was resurrected as a spirit.

    >10) on the third day He rose from the dead. Afterwards He appeared to His disciples…<

    >11) And I believe Jesus redeemed all mankind by His death and resurrection, thereby setting the captives of Hades free and He took captivity captive when He ascended to heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.<

    >12) And I believe in the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God and of Christ.<

We agree with this last one with the exception of the implication that the Holy Spirit is also “Christ’s spirit” due to the misinterpretation of Paul’s words in Romans.

    >13) And I believe that Jesus shall come again to judge the living and the dead and to establish His earthly reign.<


Now, the glaring misinterpretation and its associated eisegesis is concerning your No. 2:

    >2) Jesus Christ existed (from eternity) in the beginning with His Father.<

Witnesses believe exactly what the Bible says: Christ existed “in the beginning” with GOD his Father. However, absolutely none of your cited verses supports the idea that Christ existed “from eternity.” The fact is that EVERY term used to describe Christ’s relationship with God implies that he was NOT from eternity but actually had a beginning of existence. And there are a number of Scriptures which explicitly teach that the prehuman Christ was created!

Now for reference I am going to include in the next post some solid Scriptural evidence which shows that Christ could NOT be “from eternity.”

But, I will directly address your verses here since this is a good example of where Witnesses accept what the Scriptures say while other religions must fallaciously import an unsupported interpretation into verses due to their other unscriptural theological beliefs.

The fact is that there is not one Scripture stating Jesus existed from eternity but this idea must be “read into” these verses, which is eisegesis.


    >[Theo]: Isa 57:15 “For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit…<

This verse is not even speaking of the Christ. How do you get the idea that Christ is eternal from this?

    >[Theo]: Mic 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."<

This verse does not say Christ is eternal. Such an idea is “translation dependant” since we would have to accept the imprecise rendering of the KJV regarding the Christ’s “goings forth” and the inaccurate rendering of “from everlasting.”

Notice how eminent Hebrew scholars accurately translate this verse:

“whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.”–NRSV
"Whose origin is of old from ancient times."—NAB.
" Whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."—NIV.
"One whose origins are far back in the past, in ancient times."—The Revised English Bible ("REB"), 1989.
" Whose origin goes back to the distant past, to the days of old."—NJB.
"Origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite."—NWT.

First, the primary meaning of the word OLAM is not 'eternity,' and it is used frequently with things that are obviously not eternal (like the mountains in Deut 33:15).

Second, "MATSAOTH" (goings out) literally signifies "origins" hence a beginning or birth, and thus the verse is saying that the Messiah had a “beginning” from “long before.” In contrast to the Messiah who had an origin, the Eternal Almighty God could NEVER be said to have had any type of “origin.”

So, instead of Micah 5:2 teaching that the Son of God had no beginning, it teaches just the opposite! The Christ had an “origin” or start in the ‘indefinite ancient days'. This is in agreement with the explicit statements of God’s Word that the prehuman Christ had a beginning of life, after which Jehovah used him as His master worker and spokesman (Pro.8:22–31; Rev.19:13).

The context of Micah also makes it clear that the "ruler" will not be God. Verse 4 states, not that this ruler will be God, but rather that Jehovah will be "his God" (v. 4) and “he will stand in the strength of Yahweh *his God*.”

So when we stick to what the Hebrew words actually mean we get no idea of Christ being eternal.


    >[Theo]: John 1:30 “This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.'” ~ John the Baptist.<

    >[Theo]: John 6:61-62 Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?  What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?”<

    >[Theo]: John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”<

There is no eternity taught in these verses. They only state that Christ did have a heavenly existence before coming to earth as a man. Any idea of existence “from eternity” must be “read into” the verse due to a theological presupposition i.e.; eisegesis.

    >[Theo]: John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” ~ John<

Ditto with above. There is no eternity taught in this verse. It only states that Christ was in existence at a certain specified point: “the beginning.” This is a clear reference to “the beginning” in Genesis regarding God’s creation of the physical “heavens and earth.” Again, any idea of existence “from eternity” must be “read into” the verse due to a theological presupposition i.e.; eisegesis.

    >[Theo]: Phil 2:5-8 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.”<

Even if we just blindly accept the incorrect rendering of the KJV and NKJV, there is again no existence from eternity taught here. It simply states that Christ had a prehuman existence

"Though he was in the form of God he did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at."—NAB, RSV, NIV, NE, TEV, RS

Some Trinitarians, claim that Jesus must be God because it says he was in God's "form" and that the word translated "robbery" (KJV) or "grasped" (RSV) means to "cling to" (JER,LIV), meaning that Jesus was equal to God to begin with. However, this interpretation, as always, requires us to be ignorant of Greek grammar and definitions.

First, the Greek word "form" is "MORFH." And according to most lexicons it means "in the form of, outward appearance, shape." (BAGD Lexicon pg. 528; Moulton pg. 273) "The external appearance children are said to reflect...of parents."--Thayers

A child's similarity with it's parents doesn't mean the child is exactly the same individual as the parent.

All this tells us about Jesus when he was in heaven is that he was in God's "form, or outward appearance." Jn.4:24 tells us: "God is a Spirit." Paul was simply stating that Christ had existed as a powerful spirit in heaven. We would have to force a meaning into this scripture to make it say Jesus was equal with or the same as God.

Secondly, the Greek word translated as "grasped" in many bibles is hARPAZO. It literally means to "plunder, pull, seize, take away by force." It never means to "cling to" or possess already. (Thayer's Lexicon pg 726; Moulton pg. 52).

The Expositors Greek Testament Vol. III pg. 436, 437 says of harpazo (grasp/seize) at Php 2:6: "We cannot find any passage where hARPAZO or any of its derivatives has the sense of "holding in possession," "retaining." It seems invariably to mean "seize," "snatch violently."

Paul said that [Jesus] "did *not* consider grabbing equality with God."

Vol. 2 of The New International Dictionary of NT Theology (1976) agrees: "...Although the Son of God in his pre-existent being was in the form of God, he resisted the temptation to be equal with God (Php. 2:6).

Far from saying that Jesus thought it was appropriate to be equal to God, the Greek of Phil.2:6, when translated correctly states just the opposite, that Jesus did *not* think it was appropriate to try to be equal to God.


Since these verses simply state that Christ had a prehuman existence they could fit into either idea; either Christ was created long before God began creating the angels and the physical universe, or he was “from eternity.” But before you can assume these verses are referring to Christ existing from eternity you must present explicit, or at least sound, evidence in God’s Word. Witnesses have *explicit* statements in Scripture which show that Christ had a beginning of existence and was part of God’s creative order.


Now, abiding by the rules of exegesis, either defend these verses as somehow showing Christ is “from eternity” or cite other verses which do! Or admit that your interpretation is a theological presupposition based on eisegesis!

Yours,

BAR-ANERGES