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Switch to Forum Live View Is JWs' doctrine that A&E sinned against the Holy Spirit true?
3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 3:42PM #31
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 967

Dec 18, 2011 -- 3:17PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


When Jesus spoke of 'men' in Matthew, Ed, his listeners would have most likely reasoned that me meant 'men' such as themselves, those born under the curse of Adamic death.  No one was addressing the 'special case' of Adam and Eve, but the general experience of mankind.  And the context in which Jesus brought up the unforgivable sin, (in which actions of the holy spirit were being falsely attributed to Satanic forces) gives us the 'who' that Jesus had in mind when he spoke of 'men.'


The beautiful thing to consider is, that opportunity for us to escape this death sentence was made, though we did nothing to deserve it. 




Beautful...yeah and to think  it was all decided "before the founding of the world" that is before humans started to have children


*** it-2 p. 1207 World ***
Therefore “the founding of the world” need not be taken to mean the beginning of the creation of the material universe, nor does the expression “before the founding of the world” (Joh 17:5, 24; Eph 1:4; 1Pe 1:20) refer to a point of time prior to the creation of the material universe. Rather, these expressions evidently relate to the time when the human race was ‘founded’ through the first human pair, Adam and Eve, who, outside of Eden, began to conceive seed that could benefit from God’s provisions for deliverance from inherited sin.—Ge 3:20-24; 4:1, 2.O


Ooooooorrrrrrr....it could mean it was all decided "before the founding of the world"


(John 17:23-24) . . .. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.


Now....you think Jehovah only started loving Jesus when Adam and Eve started having children.. really? 









In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 3:53PM #32
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

(John 17:23-24) . . .. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.


Now....you think Jehovah only started loving Jesus when Adam and Eve started having children.. really?--Presentsimple


 


You somehow read John as meaning 'just previous' to the founding of the world?  All is says is 'before.'  

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 4:16PM #33
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 967

Dec 18, 2011 -- 3:53PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


(John 17:23-24) . . .. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.


Now....you think Jehovah only started loving Jesus when Adam and Eve started having children.. really?--Presentsimple


 


You somehow read John as meaning 'just previous' to the founding of the world?  All is says is 'before.'  




before
Part of Speech:     adverb
Definition:     earlier
Synonyms:     afore, aforetime, ahead, ante, antecedently, anteriorly, back, before present, ere, fore, former, formerly, forward, gone, gone by, heretofore, in advance, in days of yore, in front, in old days, in the past, past, precendently, previous, previously, since, sooner, up to now
Antonyms:     after, afterward, behind, later


The point is WTS's definition of "before the founding of the world" contradicts the Bible's per what Jesus said.

In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 4:43PM #34
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Ed, I want to make sure no confusion is created for you, though you can likely read 'before' as no more than it says--'before.'


 


Before the founding of the world really couldn't mean before the creation of the Earth.  Why?  This would violate justice, because it would mean God foreordained a need for adoption through Jesus of 'sons to himself' before man had ever even sinned.


(Ephesians 1:4-5) . . .as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 


That would necessitate God predetermining that Adam and Eve would fail, which would make it unfair for God to hold them accountable.  That could not be right.


Also the word for 'founding' is the Greek word,  , ka‧ta‧bo‧les′ with a literal meaning of 'throwing down of seed.'  It would make more sense that Jehovah predetermined a need for a group of adopted 'sons' after the need for it actually arose, after the fall, and this harmonizes best with the Greek word used, before Adam and Eve began producing offspring or 'seed.'


 


 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 10:45PM #35
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Dec 18, 2011 -- 3:17PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


When Jesus spoke of 'men' in Matthew, Ed, his listeners would have most likely reasoned that me meant 'men' such as themselves, those born under the curse of Adamic death.  No one was addressing the 'special case' of Adam and Eve, but the general experience of mankind.  And the context in which Jesus brought up the unforgivable sin, (in which actions of the holy spirit were being falsely attributed to Satanic forces) gives us the 'who' that Jesus had in mind when he spoke of 'men.'




A lot of what you say, might be true, but that still doesn't negate the simple principle that is stated in Matthew 12:31:


31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.



Also, what does Jesus' listeners having most likely reasoned that (men?) meant 'men' such as themselves....have to do with whether or not the principle in Matthew 12:31 applied to any human being?


Also, I wanted to ask you: Did the angel that later became Satan, blasphemy against the holy spirit?

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 19, 2011 - 1:20AM #36
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 967

Dec 18, 2011 -- 4:43PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Ed, I want to make sure no confusion is created for you, though you can likely read 'before' as no more than it says--'before.'


 


Before the founding of the world really couldn't mean before the creation of the Earth.  Why?  This would violate justice, because it would mean God foreordained a need for adoption through Jesus of 'sons to himself' before man had ever even sinned.


(Ephesians 1:4-5) . . .as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 


That would necessitate God predetermining that Adam and Eve would fail, which would make it unfair for God to hold them accountable.  That could not be right.


Also the word for 'founding' is the Greek word,  , ka‧ta‧bo‧les′ with a literal meaning of 'throwing down of seed.'  It would make more sense that Jehovah predetermined a need for a group of adopted 'sons' after the need for it actually arose, after the fall, and this harmonizes best with the Greek word used, before Adam and Eve began producing offspring or 'seed.'


 


 




Once again WTS and its defenders confer human limitations and ignorance to Jehovah's supreme intelligence... Think a minute since Jehovah the master programer created this test for A&E isnt logical that he would have a IF THEN contingency in place??  Just like a human programer does not forodain that someone will  hit the wrong key or delete something by accident he puts inplace a 'recovery' plan.  


You all talk so much about 'free will' yet your understanding of its paramerters or so narrow.


So yeah before the founding of the world means just what Jesus said it meant in every instance.

In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 19, 2011 - 1:28AM #37
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 967

Dec 18, 2011 -- 10:45PM, Ed2 wrote:


Dec 18, 2011 -- 3:17PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


When Jesus spoke of 'men' in Matthew, Ed, his listeners would have most likely reasoned that me meant 'men' such as themselves, those born under the curse of Adamic death.  No one was addressing the 'special case' of Adam and Eve, but the general experience of mankind.  And the context in which Jesus brought up the unforgivable sin, (in which actions of the holy spirit were being falsely attributed to Satanic forces) gives us the 'who' that Jesus had in mind when he spoke of 'men.'




A lot of what you say, might be true, but that still doesn't negate the simple principle that is stated in Matthew 12:31:


31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.



Also, what does Jesus' listeners having most likely reasoned that (men?) meant 'men' such as themselves....have to do with whether or not the principle in Matthew 12:31 applied to any human being?


Also, I wanted to ask you: Did the angel that later became Satan, blasphemy against the holy spirit?




First question the same meaning referenced here: men,mankind , humans


(1 Timothy 2:5-6) . . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all. . .



Second question YES:


(Matthew 12:31-32) 31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.


Jesus was adressing the governing body of Jehovah's people at that time because they had attributed falsehood to Gods holy spirit through Jesus.


Just before the above scripture this was the context of the conversation:


(Matthew 12:24-30) 24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be‧el′ze‧bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be‧el′ze‧bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU. 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his movable goods, unless first he binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.






In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 19, 2011 - 5:46AM #38
eloquens
Posts: 884

Dec 19, 2011 -- 1:20AM, Presentsiimpletense wrote:


Dec 18, 2011 -- 4:43PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Ed, I want to make sure no confusion is created for you, though you can likely read 'before' as no more than it says--'before.'


 


Before the founding of the world really couldn't mean before the creation of the Earth.  Why?  This would violate justice, because it would mean God foreordained a need for adoption through Jesus of 'sons to himself' before man had ever even sinned.


(Ephesians 1:4-5) . . .as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 


That would necessitate God predetermining that Adam and Eve would fail, which would make it unfair for God to hold them accountable.  That could not be right.


Also the word for 'founding' is the Greek word,  , ka‧ta‧bo‧les′ with a literal meaning of 'throwing down of seed.'  It would make more sense that Jehovah predetermined a need for a group of adopted 'sons' after the need for it actually arose, after the fall, and this harmonizes best with the Greek word used, before Adam and Eve began producing offspring or 'seed.'


 


 




Once again WTS and its defenders confer human limitations and ignorance to Jehovah's supreme intelligence... Think a minute since Jehovah the master programer created this test for A&E isnt logical that he would have a IF THEN contingency in place??  Just like a human programer does not forodain that someone will  hit the wrong key or delete something by accident he puts inplace a 'recovery' plan.  


You all talk so much about 'free will' yet your understanding of its paramerters or so narrow.


So yeah before the founding of the world means just what Jesus said it meant in every instance.





This comment demonstrates the advantage and neccessity of knowing God by Name.  His very Name Jehovah means that he needs no "contingency in place".


No one can thwart Jehovah's purpose and no one can stay his hand.  He can come up with a solution to any change in circumstance to fullfil his stated purpose at the drop of a hat, without a need for pre-planning.  His Almighty power and boundless wisdom make this a reality.


 


eloquens


 

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 19, 2011 - 8:58AM #39
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Dec 18, 2011 -- 10:45PM, Ed2 wrote:


Dec 18, 2011 -- 3:17PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


When Jesus spoke of 'men' in Matthew, Ed, his listeners would have most likely reasoned that me meant 'men' such as themselves, those born under the curse of Adamic death.  No one was addressing the 'special case' of Adam and Eve, but the general experience of mankind.  And the context in which Jesus brought up the unforgivable sin, (in which actions of the holy spirit were being falsely attributed to Satanic forces) gives us the 'who' that Jesus had in mind when he spoke of 'men.'




A lot of what you say, might be true, but that still doesn't negate the simple principle that is stated in Matthew 12:31:


31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.



Also, what does Jesus' listeners having most likely reasoned that (men?) meant 'men' such as themselves....have to do with whether or not the principle in Matthew 12:31 applied to any human being?


Also, I wanted to ask you: Did the angel that later became Satan, blasphemy against the holy spirit?






What I am evidently expressing poorly, is that for Adam and Eve, 'sin' meant something a little different than for you and for me, or for 'men.' We are 'born in sin,' they were not.  They did not have to blaspheme against the holy spirit in order to merit the consequence that God had promised them for disobedience.  *which was merely death...let's be clear on that.


Or to put it another way, for them, any sin was unforgivable, because any sin would have been a deliberate rebellion, a choosing of a different course than the one laid out for them by God. 


For Satan, also, as a perfect created being, any sin was unforgivable.  Can we charge him with blasphemy against the spirit?  I imagine so, he was certainly the cause of it!  His list of crimes is long, and again, he only needed one to merit his destruction.


 


While we are on the subject, I recall reading years ago a comforting thought.  Some people worry about whether they have committed the unforgivable sin.  The thought, and I don't remember what publication it was in, was basically, 'If that concerns you, you most likely haven't.  Anyone who had  would be unlikely to care.' 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 19, 2011 - 10:18AM #40
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Dec 18, 2011 -- 9:20AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


The nature of the 'trees' is discussed under 





Was it symbolic?  I doubt it, GTBHS.  When they took from the tree of knowledge, they understood they were naked for the first time.  The effects of the tree were real.


Then, there is Genesis 3:22, which I'll repeat for you.  22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”


God barred them from the tree because they would otherwise live forever.

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