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Switch to Forum Live View Is JWs' doctrine that A&E sinned against the Holy Spirit true?
3 years ago  ::  Dec 15, 2011 - 7:46PM #21
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Also, addressing a point brought out by the article you quoted:


For the Watchtower to say that Adam and Eve will not be resurrected is to assume that they were never sorry for their sin.


I don't think the argument presented by the Watchtower is whether they felt sorry or not.



Well, I know that I've read where marken has said a couple times in the past that Adam tried to pass the blame on to Eve, and Eve tried to pass the blame on to the serpent, which in itself was an indication of non-repentence. And usually, JWs express teachings that they've been taught by the Watchtower.


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


As perfect human beings (let's work with this premise first) they could not have any excuse for sinning.  It was against their very nature.  They willfully disobeyed, even if they were deceived.  A simple command of "do not eat" was breached.  They were told of the consequences beforehand.  So, why should they be worthy of resurrection?



Well, there are different approaches that I could use to answer your question, but I'll answer your question with a question: Does it really seem as if Adam and Eve are in the same category as ones such as the scribes and the Pharisees, Judas Iscariot....and Satan himself? 


Also, I know that we went through this before, earlier in the thread, but I just can't imagine Jehovah taking ones such as the scribes and the Pharisees, Judas Iscariot, and Satan the Devil and his demons, into his "presence," for whatever the reason.


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

If they were imperfect human beings, I suppose they could have then taken the fruit from the tree of life, but for some reason God blocked access to them.  Which leads me to believe that the tree of life was expressly for the purpose of counteracting the effects of the tree of knowledge.



No, I'm sorry, Knowsnothing, but you are incorrect because Genesis 2:9 and 2:16 and Genesis 3:2, all indicate that Adam and Eve could eat from the tree of life(and there's no reason not to believe that they didn't)...as long as they didn't from the tree of knowledge.


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

I don't know, but the more I look into this, the more mythological it sounds to me.


 


LOL That's funny. :-)


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

I suggest you get a JW to duke it out with you on this one, because you're not going to get much from me except mad speculations (I have some in mind if you'd like to know).



Hey, go for it. ....I've enjoyed the converstion thus far. :-)

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2011 - 10:39AM #22
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Wow, post went blank.  What a shame......  I don't have time for it now, but I'll repost what I had in mind.


Meanwhile, if you're interested in a WT article dealing with this, look up the November 15, 1970 questions from our readers.  It deals specifically with Numbers 23:19.

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2011 - 4:03PM #23
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Dec 16, 2011 -- 10:39AM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Wow, post went blank.  What a shame......  I don't have time for it now, but I'll repost what I had in mind.



Oh, don't you just hate when that happens. But a quick tip to prevent that from happening is to always copy your posts to your clipboard. And if you want to be extra careful, paste and save them to something like Windows 'Accessories' Notepad.


Dec 16, 2011 -- 10:39AM, Knowsnothing wrote:

Meanwhile, if you're interested in a WT article dealing with this, look up the November 15, 1970 questions from our readers.  It deals specifically with Numbers 23:19.




I tried looking that up, but I couldn't find anything. Also, it looks like are getting your threads mixed up. Numbers 23:19 has more to do with the Does Jehovah Change His Mind? thread.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2011 - 5:33PM #24
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

We don't teach that Adam and Eve committed blasphemy, which is what the 'sin against the holy spirit' is. We teach that they sinned consciously, deliberately rejecting Jehovah as having authority over them. The two are not the same.  So reading your thread title, please be clear, we have no such doctrine.


Blasphemy is  'unforgivable' because it involves knowingly opposing the operation of Jehovah's spirit. The Pharisees did this when they saw Jesus' works and attibuted them to the power of Satan, not because they believed this, but to protect their own status. 



Their disobedience was unforgivable because there was no imperfection in Adam or Eve to weaken them and make them subject to sinful desires. They deliberately chose whom they wanted to listen to, and it wasn't God. God was under no obligation to continue to have them present in his universe, though they did live in his presence, on the earth, his 'footstool.' And he gave them garments because the environment they were going into was harsh, and theirs would not have been very long-lasting.



It was also unforgivable because it brought death to the human race, making them deliberate murderers.  And they had been clearly told what the consequence would be, so no excuse could be made.


 


 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2011 - 6:19PM #25
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:46PM, Ed2 wrote:


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Also, addressing a point brought out by the article you quoted:


For the Watchtower to say that Adam and Eve will not be resurrected is to assume that they were never sorry for their sin.


I don't think the argument presented by the Watchtower is whether they felt sorry or not.



Well, I know that I've read where marken has said a couple times in the past that Adam tried to pass the blame on to Eve, and Eve tried to pass the blame on to the serpent, which in itself was an indication of non-repentence. And usually, JWs express teachings that they've been taught by the Watchtower.


I don't disagree with you there. 

Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


As perfect human beings (let's work with this premise first) they could not have any excuse for sinning.  It was against their very nature.  They willfully disobeyed, even if they were deceived.  A simple command of "do not eat" was breached.  They were told of the consequences beforehand.  So, why should they be worthy of resurrection?



Well, there are different approaches that I could use to answer your question, but I'll answer your question with a question: Does it really seem as if Adam and Eve are in the same category as ones such as the scribes and the Pharisees, Judas Iscariot....and Satan himself? 


Also, I know that we went through this before, earlier in the thread, but I just can't imagine Jehovah taking ones such as the scribes and the Pharisees, Judas Iscariot, and Satan the Devil and his demons, into his "presence," for whatever the reason.


Well, remember the reason here we are working with is that they were perfect (if working with the first premise).  That right there tells you everything.  Like GTBHS said, no excuses.


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

If they were imperfect human beings, I suppose they could have then taken the fruit from the tree of life, but for some reason God blocked access to them.  Which leads me to believe that the tree of life was expressly for the purpose of counteracting the effects of the tree of knowledge.



No, I'm sorry, Knowsnothing, but you are incorrect because Genesis 2:9 and 2:16 and Genesis 3:2, all indicate that Adam and Eve could eat from the tree of life(and there's no reason not to believe that they didn't)...as long as they didn't from the tree of knowledge.


Ok, but Genesis 3:22 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”   This leads me to believe that if they had eaten it at any time in the past, they could live forever.  Looks like a one time deal.  Once you ate, you were sealed with everlasting life.  At least, that's how it reads to me.


Therefore,  I think you're doing a bit of assuming.  And, so am I.


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

I don't know, but the more I look into this, the more mythological it sounds to me.


 


LOL That's funny. :-)


Dec 15, 2011 -- 7:07PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

I suggest you get a JW to duke it out with you on this one, because you're not going to get much from me except mad speculations (I have some in mind if you'd like to know).



Hey, go for it. ....I've enjoyed the converstion thus far. :-)



I wonder what would have happened if A&E had taken the fruit of life along with the fruit of knowledge.  God himself says in Gen. 3:22 they would live forever.  But, would there be any punishment?





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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 9:20AM #26
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

The nature of the 'trees' is discussed under 


“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 11:10AM #27
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Dec 17, 2011 -- 5:33PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


We don't teach that Adam and Eve committed blasphemy, which is what the 'sin against the holy spirit' is. We teach that they sinned consciously, deliberately rejecting Jehovah as having authority over them. The two are not the same.  So reading your thread title, please be clear, we have no such doctrine.


Blasphemy is  'unforgivable' because it involves knowingly opposing the operation of Jehovah's spirit. The Pharisees did this when they saw Jesus' works and attibuted them to the power of Satan, not because they believed this, but to protect their own status. 



Their disobedience was unforgivable because there was no imperfection in Adam or Eve to weaken them and make them subject to sinful desires. They deliberately chose whom they wanted to listen to, and it wasn't God. God was under no obligation to continue to have them present in his universe, though they did live in his presence, on the earth, his 'footstool.' And he gave them garments because the environment they were going into was harsh, and theirs would not have been very long-lasting.



It was also unforgivable because it brought death to the human race, making them deliberate murderers.  And they had been clearly told what the consequence would be, so no excuse could be made.




Um, first of all, hello, GTBHS. Long time no see.


And then second of all, Matthew 12:31 says:


31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.



Therefore, when I read this scripture, I see it saying that "Every" sort sin...will be forgiven men...with the exception of blasphemy against the spirit. Therefore, if the 'sort' of sin that Adam and Eve committed was unforgivable, then doesn't that mean that their sin was blasphemy against the spirit...according to Matthew 12:31? 

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 12:18PM #28
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Dec 17, 2011 -- 6:19PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Ed2: No, I'm sorry, Knowsnothing, but you are incorrect because Genesis 2:9 and 2:16 and Genesis 3:2, all indicate that Adam and Eve could eat from the tree of life(and there's no reason not to believe that they didn't)...as long as they didn't from the tree of knowledge.


Knowsnothing: Ok, but Genesis 3:22 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”   This leads me to believe that if they had eaten it at any time in the past, they could live forever.  Looks like a one time deal.  Once you ate, you were sealed with everlasting life.  At least, that's how it reads to me.


Therefore,  I think you're doing a bit of assuming.  And, so am I.



KN, we did a thread on that topic a little while back ago. And I don't know if you saw the thread: What exactly was the original lie?? Is this a technicality? Why really did A&E die? but we pretty much discussed the ins and outs of that topic...and I think that post #52 on page 6:


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


pretty much summed up how the eating of the fruit worked. And here is an excerpt from that post:



Sep 7, 2011 -- 8:02PM, Newtonian wrote:

However, did they need to eat of the tree of life to continue living?    That is not stated in Scripture.



Sure it is. Genesis 2:9 says: 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. And in conjunction with that, Genesis 2:16-17 says: 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” Therefore, these scriptures make it clear that the tree of life was included as one of the trees of the garden that A&E were able to eat from.


Also, after further looking at Genesis 3:22, logically, this verse indicates that A&E had already been partaking of the tree of life, but were barred from continuing to eat from it after they had sinned. Therefore, this would indicate(according to this narrative), that A&E depended upon eating from the tree of life to continue living.


Sep 7, 2011 -- 8:02PM, Newtonian wrote:

I could explain this better scientifically - their DNA was perfect before they sinned - thus, for example, DNA repair mechanisms, which still exist, operated perfectly such that all causes of aging and death were coded for so as to compensate for all such causes of aging and death.



Newtonian, that is something that has been created in your own mind and which has no scriptural basis.



Sep 7, 2011 -- 8:02PM, Newtonian wrote:

But would partaking of the tree of life keep their DNA functioning perfectly????



But why would something external be needed to keep their DNA functioning perfectly if their DNA was perfect(before they sinned) and they had perfect DNA repair mechanism, which counteracted all causes of aging and death? That doesn't make any sense, Newtonian.




Dec 17, 2011 -- 6:19PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Ed2: Hey, go for it. ....I've enjoyed the converstion thus far. :-)



Knowsnothing: I wonder what would have happened if A&E had taken the fruit of life along with the fruit of knowledge.  God himself says in Gen. 3:22 they would live forever.  But, would there be any punishment?




I think that you are misunderstanding what Genesis 3:22 is actually saying...in the same way that I also misunderstood what it was actually saying.


It may look like the gods(Jehovah and the other god) are saying that Adam must not reach out and partake of the fruit or else he will live forever, however, when looking at everything else that is said in Genesis 2:9, Genesis 2:16-17, and Genesis 3:2-3, there is really no valid reason to believe that the tree of life was not included in the trees that Jehovah said could be eaten from in Genesis 2...and the trees that Eve stated that she and her husband may eat from in Genesis 3. Unless you or someone else can give me a valid reason as to why the tree of life was not included in those trees.


Therefore, when considering the aforementioned verses in Genesis 2 and 3, Genesis 3:22 could only mean that Adam and Eve could no longer eat from the tree of life. And by doing so, they eventually died.


Edited by Ed2 because the referral to post #41 in the What exactly was the original lie?? Is this a technicality? Why really did A&E die? thread has a former view by me that was later adjusted in that thread.


I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 3:06PM #29
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 967

Hi guys some time ago while doing some research on some other WTS philosophy and their invention of "spiritual paradise" I found this:


 it-2 pp. 576-577 Paradise
Eating in “the Paradise of God.” Revelation 2:7 mentions a “tree of life” in “the paradise of God” and that eating from it would be the privilege of the one “that conquers.” Since other promises given in this section of Revelation to such conquering ones clearly relate to their gaining a heavenly inheritance (Re 2:26-28; 3:12, 21), it seems evident that “the paradise of God” in this case is a heavenly one. The word “tree” here translates the Greek word xy′lon, which literally means “wood,” and could therefore refer to an orchard of trees. In the earthly Paradise of Eden, eating of the tree of life would have meant living forever for man. (Ge 3:22-24) Even the fruit of the other trees of the garden would have been life sustaining for man as long as he continued obedient. So, the partaking of “the tree [or trees] of life” in “the paradise of God” evidently relates to the divine provision for sustained life granted the Christian conquerors, other texts showing that they receive the prize of immortality and incorruptibility along with their heavenly Head and Lord, Christ Jesus.—1Co 15:50-54; 1Pe 1:3, 4.


In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 3:17PM #30
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

When Jesus spoke of 'men' in Matthew, Ed, his listeners would have most likely reasoned that me meant 'men' such as themselves, those born under the curse of Adamic death.  No one was addressing the 'special case' of Adam and Eve, but the general experience of mankind.  And the context in which Jesus brought up the unforgivable sin, (in which actions of the holy spirit were being falsely attributed to Satanic forces) gives us the 'who' that Jesus had in mind when he spoke of 'men.'


The beautiful thing to consider is, that opportunity for us to escape this death sentence was made, though we did nothing to deserve it.Smile 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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