Is JWs' doctrine that A&E sinned against the Holy Spirit true?

Is JWs' doctrine that A&E...

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Switch to Forum Live View Is JWs' doctrine that A&E sinned against the Holy Spirit true?

1 year ago :: Dec 05, 2011 - 10:32AM #1
Ed2 Posts: 3,322	In a recent thread over at the DC forum, there was mention of how after Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, they still lived amongst the presence of Jehovah. This is indicated by Genesis 4:14 when in the NWT, Cain said to Jehovah: "Here you are actually driving me this day from off the surface of the ground, and from your face." Or as the NIV puts it: "Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence." Or similarly, as the NLT puts it: "You have banished me from the land and from your presence." Also, in the NWT, Genesis 4:16 says: "With that Cain went away from the face of Jehovah" while the ASV says: "And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah." And similarly, Darby also says: "And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah." However, the meaning is the same, which is that after Cain murdered Abel, he was banished from the area that he lived in, which was considered being with or being in the presence of Jehovah, which was also the same area that Adam and Eve lived in. However, what I would like to know from JWs is that since JWs believe that Adam and Eve committed the unforgiveable sin and won't be resurrected, why did A&E remain in the presence of Jehovah, even though they committed the unforgivable sin? With the exception of Holy Spirit for this is Jehovah's Active Force to do his Will. Therefore, if you go against God's Will, one can sin against Holy Spirit. This is unforgivable in this system and the next. Adam and Eve went against Jehovah's Will in the Garden and so did Satan. en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-16... Also, in Genesis 3;21, Jehovah made A&E garments of skin....even though they weren't actually naked.(And I wonder why He did that.) Plus, in Genesis 4:1, Eve gives credit to Jehovah after giving birth to Cain...as if she still had some sort of relationship or communication with Jehovah. Therefore, I'm just wondering if A&E really didn't sin against the Holy Spirit and if it's possible that they will be resurrected in the new system. Because remaining in the presence of Jehovah and continuing to have some sort of relationship and communication with Him, sure seem like strange indications that A&E sinned against the Holy Spirit. Any comments would be appreciated. I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad. ~Ed2 "Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?" ~Ed2(See post #53) "Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137." ~Ed2(See post #145) "It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people." ~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.) "If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes." ~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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1 year ago :: Dec 05, 2011 - 1:13PM #2
Kemmer Posts: 14,886	Therefore, I'm just wondering if A&E really didn't sin against the Holy Spirit and if it's possible that they will be resurrected in the new system. Forget the "new system" for at least a couple hundred years. Steve Jobs was working on the new system just before he died and he hadn't made enough progress on it to be at all workable. (Sneak clue): EVERYBODY will be resurrected.
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1 year ago :: Dec 05, 2011 - 6:07PM #3
Ed2 Posts: 3,322	Dec 5, 2011 -- 1:13PM, Kemmer wrote: Therefore, I'm just wondering if A&E really didn't sin against the Holy Spirit and if it's possible that they will be resurrected in the new system. Forget the "new system" for at least a couple hundred years. Steve Jobs was working on the new system just before he died and he hadn't made enough progress on it to be at all workable. (Sneak clue): EVERYBODY will be resurrected. I was thinking about PST's recent thread about how the Watchtower doesn't reveal certain things to a person until after they have been baptized because HOLY MOLY!....it's really hard to find information about this topic on the internet or from watchtower.org. However, I did find some information on this topic from Yahoo! Answers by apparent JW GUNTER, whose answer is amongst the "Other Answers"...3rd one down: Hello, Any organisation or individual who go against the teachings in the Holy Scriptures, such as the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' time can be held responsible for sinning against God's Holy (pure) Spirit. When this is done deliberately, like in the case of Adam, Judas and some others, no resurrection is promised. answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201... But anyway, I am challenging JWs' doctrine that A&E sinned against the Holy Spirit and will not be part of the resurrection with the scriptures that I presented in this thread. I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad. ~Ed2 "Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?" ~Ed2(See post #53) "Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137." ~Ed2(See post #145) "It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people." ~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.) "If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes." ~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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1 year ago :: Dec 05, 2011 - 6:31PM #4
Knowsnothing Posts: 1,138	Did they even know of a concept called the holy spirit? How can they sin against something they don't even know? Unless sinning against the holy spirit means sinning against God, in which case they did. Anyways, I'll play JW advocate here. Adam and Eve were the only humans on earth, right? So, God would have to ensure their protection, otherwise how would humanity be brought forth without them? In some paradoxical way, I suppose he had to maintain them alive, so that they could have imperfect offspring, etc. etc. The prophecy at Gen. 3:15 comes to mind (even though JW's interpet this symbolically, in order for "Satan's seed" to exist, there needed to be imperfect, rebellious humans) So, while he would no longer communicate with them directly, hated their guts, and had cursed the land; at the same time he had to provide for them and protect them from serious harm. Weird, huh?
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1 year ago :: Dec 05, 2011 - 7:47PM #5
Kemmer Posts: 14,886	So, while he would no longer communicate with them directly, hated their guts, and had cursed the land; at the same time he had to provide for them and protect them from serious harm. Weird, huh? Sorta like putting the king cobra on the Endangered/Protected List.
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1 year ago :: Dec 05, 2011 - 8:57PM #6
Ed2 Posts: 3,322	Dec 5, 2011 -- 6:31PM, Knowsnothing wrote: Anyways, I'll play JW advocate here. Adam and Eve were the only humans on earth, right? So, God would have to ensure their protection, otherwise how would humanity be brought forth without them? In some paradoxical way, I suppose he had to maintain them alive, so that they could have imperfect offspring, etc. etc. The prophecy at Gen. 3:15 comes to mind (even though JW's interpet this symbolically, in order for "Satan's seed" to exist, there needed to be imperfect, rebellious humans) So, while he would no longer communicate with them directly, hated their guts, and had cursed the land; at the same time he had to provide for them and protect them from serious harm. Weird, huh? Interesting answer, however, with Adam and Eve being the only humans on earth, there wasn't much around that could be a threat to them or to put them in mortal danger. Plus, keep in mind that the sharp toothed and the sharp clawed animals were still eating grass and vegetation at that time(cough cough), therefore, they wouldn't have posed a threat to A&E. Also, even though what you said makes sense, Knowsnothing, Jehovah could have kept a close eye on them without them having to be in His 'presence' to ensure theirs and their offspring's safety and continued life. And one more thing. As far as providing for them, according to Genesis 3:17-19, Adam was to provide for himself. I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad. ~Ed2 "Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?" ~Ed2(See post #53) "Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137." ~Ed2(See post #145) "It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people." ~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.) "If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes." ~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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1 year ago :: Dec 06, 2011 - 11:55AM #7
Presentsiimpletense Posts: 942	Dec 5, 2011 -- 8:57PM, Ed2 wrote: Dec 5, 2011 -- 6:31PM, Knowsnothing wrote: Anyways, I'll play JW advocate here. Adam and Eve were the only humans on earth, right? So, God would have to ensure their protection, otherwise how would humanity be brought forth without them? In some paradoxical way, I suppose he had to maintain them alive, so that they could have imperfect offspring, etc. etc. The prophecy at Gen. 3:15 comes to mind (even though JW's interpet this symbolically, in order for "Satan's seed" to exist, there needed to be imperfect, rebellious humans) So, while he would no longer communicate with them directly, hated their guts, and had cursed the land; at the same time he had to provide for them and protect them from serious harm. Weird, huh? Interesting answer, however, with Adam and Eve being the only humans on earth, there wasn't much around that could be a threat to them or to put them in mortal danger. Plus, keep in mind that the sharp toothed and the sharp clawed animals were still eating grass and vegetation at that time(cough cough), therefore, they wouldn't have posed a threat to A&E. Also, even though what you said makes sense, Knowsnothing, Jehovah could have kept a close eye on them without them having to be in His 'presence' to ensure theirs and their offspring's safety and continued life. And one more thing. As far as providing for them, according to Genesis 3:17-19, Adam was to provide for himself. So WTS says A&E sinned against the holy spirit? There is no scripture to support 'sinning' agains the holy spirit....now BLASPHEMY thats scripture and as it is WTS is far and away more guilty of that than A&E. Mark 3:28-30 New International Version (NIV) ²⁸ Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, ²⁹ but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” ³⁰ He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.” Notice attributing falsehood to what is truely divine is blasphemy...for the record Adam and Eve never did that they believed a fellow creature resident's of Eden 'new light' so to speak..and we all know the rest. EDITED* TO ADD OMG! THE FIRST INSTANCE OF "NEW LIGHT" CAME FROM THE 'ANGEL OF LIGHT' AND WAS *CONTRADICTORY OF WHAT JEHOVAH HAD ACTUALLY SAID*!! In the vindication of the truth
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1 year ago :: Dec 07, 2011 - 10:33AM #8
Knowsnothing Posts: 1,138	Dec 5, 2011 -- 8:57PM, Ed2 wrote: Dec 5, 2011 -- 6:31PM, Knowsnothing wrote: Anyways, I'll play JW advocate here. Adam and Eve were the only humans on earth, right? So, God would have to ensure their protection, otherwise how would humanity be brought forth without them? In some paradoxical way, I suppose he had to maintain them alive, so that they could have imperfect offspring, etc. etc. The prophecy at Gen. 3:15 comes to mind (even though JW's interpet this symbolically, in order for "Satan's seed" to exist, there needed to be imperfect, rebellious humans) So, while he would no longer communicate with them directly, hated their guts, and had cursed the land; at the same time he had to provide for them and protect them from serious harm. Weird, huh? Interesting answer, however, with Adam and Eve being the only humans on earth, there wasn't much around that could be a threat to them or to put them in mortal danger. Plus, keep in mind that the sharp toothed and the sharp clawed animals were still eating grass and vegetation at that time(cough cough), therefore, they wouldn't have posed a threat to A&E. Also, even though what you said makes sense, Knowsnothing, Jehovah could have kept a close eye on them without them having to be in His 'presence' to ensure theirs and their offspring's safety and continued life. And one more thing. As far as providing for them, according to Genesis 3:17-19, Adam was to provide for himself. I've always found myself skeptical of the concept of paradise on earth. For example, even without rabid or dangerous animals, what of a person that trip on a stone? Or landed on a sharp object, such as raised bark from a tree? Would a person in paradise be able to survive a fall of great height? I also understand the point you make in Genesis 3:17-19, yet the fact remains Jehovah had to keep a close eye. If agriculture failed (due to the cursing of the land), where would Adam get his grub? Adam had to fend for himself, but if that failed.... Jehovah step into the act! And to top it all off, there are trees and animals that are poisinous, by nature. I can just imagine Adam wandering off into the woods, see a tasty little blueberry bush, bite in, and be pushing daisies 6 hours later. Anyways, I know I have gone off on a great tangent to the OP. Ultimately, did they have a chance at forgiveness? I suppose that's more of a philosophical question. If Jesus, a perfect being, sinned, would he have been forgiven? This is a question that involves the theological presumption of A&E being perfect. (if they ate of the tree of life, they would become immortal, thus begging the question, were they really perfect before their fall?) So, if they weren't, then it seems they could be forgiven. To me, this seems like an exercise in fuitility, because unless God came down himself and answered questions like these, who the hell knows?
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1 year ago :: Dec 10, 2011 - 2:48PM #9
Ed2 Posts: 3,322	Dec 7, 2011 -- 10:33AM, Knowsnothing wrote: I've always found myself skeptical of the concept of paradise on earth. For example, even without rabid or dangerous animals, what of a person that trip on a stone? Or landed on a sharp object, such as raised bark from a tree? Would a person in paradise be able to survive a fall of great height? Um, a person? Aren't we talking about Adam and Eve and their direct descendant whose safety and survival will ensure God's Genesis 3:15 prophecy about the serpent's seed and the seed of the woman? ....Therefore, according to scriptures such as Psalm 91:10-12, wouldn't it be a simple task for Jehovah to ensure Adam and Eve's safety? Dec 7, 2011 -- 10:33AM, Knowsnothing wrote: I also understand the point you make in Genesis 3:17-19, yet the fact remains Jehovah had to keep a close eye. If agriculture failed (due to the cursing of the land), where would Adam get his grub? Adam had to fend for himself, but if that failed.... Jehovah step into the act! Yes, but since when did that mean that Adam and Eve took up residency with Jehovah....or that Jehovah took up residency with Adam and Eve? Dec 7, 2011 -- 10:33AM, Knowsnothing wrote: And to top it all off, there are trees and animals that are poisinous, by nature. I can just imagine Adam wandering off into the woods, see a tasty little blueberry bush, bite in, and be pushing daisies 6 hours later. Once again, Psalm 91:10-12. Dec 7, 2011 -- 10:33AM, Knowsnothing wrote: Anyways, I know I have gone off on a great tangent to the OP. Ultimately, did they have a chance at forgiveness? I suppose that's more of a philosophical question. If Jesus, a perfect being, sinned, would he have been forgiven? This is a question that involves the theological presumption of A&E being perfect. (if they ate of the tree of life, they would become immortal, thus begging the question, were they really perfect before their fall?) So, if they weren't, then it seems they could be forgiven. Interesting reasoning. Dec 7, 2011 -- 10:33AM, Knowsnothing wrote: To me, this seems like an exercise in fuitility, because unless God came down himself and answered questions like these, who the hell knows? Yes, but have you ever considered that there might be something more to A&E's animal skin garments that Jehovah replaced for the fig leaf garments that they were wearing? Something that you've never heard from JWs...and something that you never will hear from JWs? I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad. ~Ed2 "Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?" ~Ed2(See post #53) "Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137." ~Ed2(See post #145) "It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people." ~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.) "If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes." ~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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1 year ago :: Dec 10, 2011 - 3:43PM #10
Knowsnothing Posts: 1,138	Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:48PM, Ed2 wrote: Yes, but have you ever considered that there might be something more to A&E's animal skin garments that Jehovah replaced for the fig leaf garments that they were wearing? Something that you've never heard from JWs...and something that you never will hear from JWs? You've piqued my curiousity. What does replacing the fig leaf garments and switching them to animal skin garments have anything to do with whether A&E were unforgivable or not? A side note: I just began to think of the implications of Jehovah giving A&E animal garments. A&E would be expected from there on to acquire garments from animal skins from that point on, even though Watchtower says animals were still "herbivorous" and were at peace with man, and with each other. Otherwise, what is the point of paradise? Man doesn't seem to have been too at piece with animal, however.
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