Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:13PM, jesus2point3 wrote:

I would argue the point with you. Gravity is a natural phenomenon that affects physical reality. It has always existed, since the beginning of time, but the concept wasn't understood by mankind until much later.

Gravity is PART of physical reality.  Of course it has an effect.  As for concepts, all they represent is what humans think, and may reflect reality or may not.  Having a conception about gravity and how it works does not impact that gravity exists and works in reality.  We are still trying to figure out how it works.

I would disagree with you hear also. I define God as the Infinite Reality that transcends both space & time. There is nothing limiting about the Deity that goes by many names, when you understand what the truth is.

But you and other theists deal with a limited, personal truth, not statements that are true about what we know of reality.  You can define the Tooth Fairly as the Infinite Reality, but it won't mean anything any more than you defining your god that way.  It may mean something to you, but it doesn't mean anything as a description of reality.

In reality everything doesn't have to have a religious reason, I'm just as comfortable with the scientific reason also. I understand what Stephen is Hawking quite well. He has given a scientific reason for everything, and when he gets to the beginning of it all, he's left with nothing in his mind.

Frankly he is more qualified to make statements about the origin of our universe than you or any religion.  If he says 'nothing' then he means it for very good reasons.

Your mind may be limited by how you define 'God', but not mine.

I defer to proper definitions.  That you feel free to define god any way you damn well please illustrates the problem with so much disagreement about what god is among theists.  You don't know, none of you do.  You define a god you want, just as other theists do.  But be clear that you are inventing a concept, not describing reality.  When you try to inflate your personal belief into an idea that it is the Infinite Reality, it sounds quite arrogant and laughable.  I'd suggest that gravity is more an infinite reality than any mortal's verson of god.

It matters not whether you believe science explains it all, or know that Allah is the reason for everything, the truth is still the same. All is following a logical plan that's been progressing since time began.

What plan?  There's no plan.  Life took 9 billion years to get going on this planet.  It almost all died off 700 million years ago.  Human DNA has many problems, we have birth defects and diseases.  Is that THE plan?  Frankly, if there's a plan, it's by an incompetent god.  I find the rosy picture some theists paint quite absurd and unrealistic.

Try not to forget that we are part of this 'system'. Therefore, when I say everything is going according to ALLAH's plan, that no man can ever CHANGE, regardless what you HOPE for . . .

There's nothing to forget.  We live in an indifferent universe that makes us all work hard to survive.  Some people die young due to disease and freak accidents.  If that's a plan you promote for your idea of god, it's not an idea of god I find appealing in the slightest.  You have to work hard to explain to yourself why the 9 year old kid dies from leukemia over two years of suffering through treatment. 

it's the same as saying all is following the laws of nature that can't be CHANGED by man, regardless what you HOPE for.

You can hope to avoid disease.  It's a lottery.  It's part of the indifferent universe we live in.  that you have created a god with a plan to impose on all this only illustrates how humans try to cope with how harsh reality really is.

You can waste your time trying to figure it all out, or you can enjoy the time you've got left. The choice is yours to make. I've chosen to kill a little time, while I have a little fun, telling you what the truth is . . .

. . . whether or not you like it. 

To my mind pretending there is a god with a plan has wasted your time.  Why you opt to believe something so apparently untrue is absurd to me.  I defer to science and reason to explain what is true about reality.  It's a reality we all experience, and includes how and why people believe in ideas that are irrational, like gods.  I am aware that I have fanatsies and illusion, but I am careful to distinguish them what what I can discern is true about experience.

Apr 24, 2012 -- 11:06PM, F1fan wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:13PM, jesus2point3 wrote:

I would argue the point with you. Gravity is a natural phenomenon that affects physical reality. It has always existed, since the beginning of time, but the concept wasn't understood by mankind until much later.

Gravity is PART of physical reality.  Of course it has an effect.  As for concepts, all they represent is what humans think, and may reflect reality or may not.  Having a conception about gravity and how it works does not impact that gravity exists and works in reality.  We are still trying to figure out how it works.

I would disagree with you hear also. I define God as the Infinite Reality that transcends both space & time. There is nothing limiting about the Deity that goes by many names, when you understand what the truth is.

But you and other theists deal with a limited, personal truth, not statements that are true about what we know of reality.  You can define the Tooth Fairly as the Infinite Reality, but it won't mean anything any more than you defining your god that way.  It may mean something to you, but it doesn't mean anything as a description of reality.

In reality everything doesn't have to have a religious reason, I'm just as comfortable with the scientific reason also. I understand what Stephen is Hawking quite well. He has given a scientific reason for everything, and when he gets to the beginning of it all, he's left with nothing in his mind.

Frankly he is more qualified to make statements about the origin of our universe than you or any religion.  If he says 'nothing' then he means it for very good reasons.

Your mind may be limited by how you define 'God', but not mine.

I defer to proper definitions.  That you feel free to define god any way you damn well please illustrates the problem with so much disagreement about what god is among theists.  You don't know, none of you do.  You define a god you want, just as other theists do.  But be clear that you are inventing a concept, not describing reality.  When you try to inflate your personal belief into an idea that it is the Infinite Reality, it sounds quite arrogant and laughable.  I'd suggest that gravity is more an infinite reality than any mortal's verson of god.

It matters not whether you believe science explains it all, or know that Allah is the reason for everything, the truth is still the same. All is following a logical plan that's been progressing since time began.

What plan?  There's no plan.  Life took 9 billion years to get going on this planet.  It almost all died off 700 million years ago.  Human DNA has many problems, we have birth defects and diseases.  Is that THE plan?  Frankly, if there's a plan, it's by an incompetent god.  I find the rosy picture some theists paint quite absurd and unrealistic.

Try not to forget that we are part of this 'system'. Therefore, when I say everything is going according to ALLAH's plan, that no man can ever CHANGE, regardless what you HOPE for . . .

There's nothing to forget.  We live in an indifferent universe that makes us all work hard to survive.  Some people die young due to disease and freak accidents.  If that's a plan you promote for your idea of god, it's not an idea of god I find appealing in the slightest.  You have to work hard to explain to yourself why the 9 year old kid dies from leukemia over two years of suffering through treatment. 

it's the same as saying all is following the laws of nature that can't be CHANGED by man, regardless what you HOPE for.

You can hope to avoid disease.  It's a lottery.  It's part of the indifferent universe we live in.  that you have created a god with a plan to impose on all this only illustrates how humans try to cope with how harsh reality really is.

You can waste your time trying to figure it all out, or you can enjoy the time you've got left. The choice is yours to make. I've chosen to kill a little time, while I have a little fun, telling you what the truth is . . .

. . . whether or not you like it. 

To my mind pretending there is a god with a plan has wasted your time.  Why you opt to believe something so apparently untrue is absurd to me.  I defer to science and reason to explain what is true about reality.  It's a reality we all experience, and includes how and why people believe in ideas that are irrational, like gods.  I am aware that I have fanatsies and illusion, but I am careful to distinguish them what what I can discern is true about experience.

ROTFLMFAO! 

Hey, I'm just some dude who tries to abide, and I acknowledge what the truth is. I accept reality exactly as it is, and don't imagine a world that's never been, of that you can be sure of.

It matters not to me what you think or believe, because in reality you can't change the truth. . . 

. . . regardless what you hope for. If you can't understand just what I'm sayin', it may be you don't have the knowledge, but in the end you'll succumb to the will of ALLAH, just as all mankind has in the past, and that goes for the future also.

BTW, when I say ROTFLMFAO, I'm not lyin' at all. I'm merely killin' some time, and havin' loads of fun - are you laughing now also?

Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:50AM, F1fan wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:15AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

Hey, I'm just some dude who tries to abide, and I acknowledge what the truth is. I accept reality exactly as it is, and don't imagine a world that's never been, of that you can be sure of.

Yet you make statements like: "I define God as the Infinite Reality that transcends both space & time" which is clearly not demonstrable reality.

It isn't even an intelligible statement.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 11:23AM, Ken wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:50AM, F1fan wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:15AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

Hey, I'm just some dude who tries to abide, and I acknowledge what the truth is. I accept reality exactly as it is, and don't imagine a world that's never been, of that you can be sure of.

Yet you make statements like: "I define God as the Infinite Reality that transcends both space & time" which is clearly not demonstrable reality.

It isn't even an intelligible statement.

In reality it's quite intelligible, if you understand the words. Merely look them up in a dictionary, and think it through for yourself. If you take the time to reflect a bit, you may begin to know what I mean. I'm not tryin' to be mean to you, I'm simply explainin' what the truth is.

If science can explain everything in existence, then there's no reason to complain, of that you can be sure of, and the Surahs of the Noble Qur'an do it quite in another language.

Try not to forget I'm no Christian man, even though I'm virtually jesus christ. They're the ones who have CHANGEd the meaning of the word, as they HOPE for a superman to return and save the world.

Some people make the claim that this being, or that being, has changed the course of history, but I don't buy that story. You can't change what hasn't happened yet, regardless what you think or believe.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 11:42AM, JCarlin wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:06AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

There's a limit to what you can & cannot do, and that's the truth you may try to deny, but in reality you'll die just as everyone has, and that's part of the plan for all mankind.

I never said there was no limit to what I can do.  Just that that limit is not imposed by God or Allah or whatever you want to call it.  It is true I will die, which makes it all the more important that I live intentionally and change what I can to make my part of society better for those that are a part of it.  As you note death is a natural consequence of sexual reproduction

I never said that. Death is a natural conclusion to Life, and nothing can change that truth, regardless what you hope for, but many try & cry when it happens without realizing it's part of the plan.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 11:42AM, JCarlin wrote:

so that all individuals will do what they can to improve their niche then get out of the way of those who follow who might build on what they have done and life progresses.  

You've ASSumed something you simply can't know, or maybe you've over ANALyzed the situation. Some merely try to survive, and find their peace of mind. They go with the flow, because they actually know what it takes to pursue their happiness. They use their liberty in such a way that does no harm, as they live their life the way they choose.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 11:42AM, JCarlin wrote:

No one has survived death but many have wasted significant portions of their lives trying to imagine ways to do so.  So far hard evidence that anyone has succeeded is nil, zero, nothing.  Although the hope is the basis of one of the longest running cons in history and even prehistory. 

Now you and I can agree on this part because in reality it's actually the truth. Some believe they'll return, to do it all over again, but I'm not one of those fools. I would guess you aren't either.