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Switch to Forum Live View Hatcher's Proof of the Existence of God
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 3:08AM #751
Blü
Posts: 25,056

mytmouse


May 9, 2012 -- 3:55PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Blü wrote:


mytmouse


What's this "supernatural" thing you keep trying to bring up?


Gods, angels, sprites, souls, ghosts, werewolves, goblins and fairies are all examples of supernatural beings.




I've already told you, I don't believe in magic.


So, you say, no god-created universe, no god-created life, no resurrection, no miracles, nothing of that kind?





In typical fashion, you're lumping things together that shouldn't be. 





I gave you a list of supernatural beings.


I gave you a list of magical happenings.


What exactly have I lumped together that shouldn't be lumped together?

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 4:09PM #752
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 10, 2012 -- 3:08AM, Blü wrote:


mytmouse


May 9, 2012 -- 3:55PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Blü wrote:


mytmouse


What's this "supernatural" thing you keep trying to bring up?


Gods, angels, sprites, souls, ghosts, werewolves, goblins and fairies are all examples of supernatural beings.




I've already told you, I don't believe in magic.


So, you say, no god-created universe, no god-created life, no resurrection, no miracles, nothing of that kind?





In typical fashion, you're lumping things together that shouldn't be. 





I gave you a list of supernatural beings.


I gave you a list of magical happenings.


What exactly have I lumped together that shouldn't be lumped together?




Suggesting that thinking the universe does, in fact, have a Creator and purpose is no different than beliving in goblins is a juvenile swipe. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 4:10PM #753
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 9, 2012 -- 8:54PM, wohali wrote:


Mytmouse:


"Entitled to their opinons."


Awfully good of you..................




Well, thanks. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 4:27PM #754
chevy956
Posts: 1,960

May 10, 2012 -- 4:09PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

May 10, 2012 -- 3:08AM, Blü wrote:


mytmouse


May 9, 2012 -- 3:55PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Blü wrote:


mytmouse


What's this "supernatural" thing you keep trying to bring up?


Gods, angels, sprites, souls, ghosts, werewolves, goblins and fairies are all examples of supernatural beings.




I've already told you, I don't believe in magic.


So, you say, no god-created universe, no god-created life, no resurrection, no miracles, nothing of that kind?





In typical fashion, you're lumping things together that shouldn't be. 





I gave you a list of supernatural beings.


I gave you a list of magical happenings.


What exactly have I lumped together that shouldn't be lumped together?




Suggesting that thinking the universe does, in fact, have a Creator and purpose is no different than beliving in goblins is a juvenile swipe. 


Both goblins and gods have the exact same amount of objective evidence for existing as anything other than concepts created by humans _ zero.


I'm still waiting to see evidence that consciousness exists independently of a living body.


Making assertions without providing evidence is a rather juvenile tactic, BTW.

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 7:46PM #755
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Mytmouse:


"Suggesting that thinking the universe does, in fact, have a Creator and purpose is no different than beliving in goblins is a juvenile swipe."


No.

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 9:31PM #756
Blü
Posts: 25,056

mytmouse


Suggesting that thinking the universe does, in fact, have a Creator


In the stories the Creator creates the universe, and life, by magic.  In the Augustine-descended version, the Creator even creates physics by magic.


What's your non-magical version?



and purpose


What's the objective purpose of the universe?



no different than beliving in goblins


Gods are supernatural beings.  Goblins are supernatural beings.  We have no reason to think any supernatural beings have objective existence and every reason to think they're imaginary.


On what reasoned basis do you differentiate them in this context?

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2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 9:53PM #757
mountain_man
Posts: 39,650

May 10, 2012 -- 4:09PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Suggesting that thinking the universe does, in fact, have a Creator and purpose is no different than beliving in goblins is a juvenile swipe.


You certainly are entitled to that opinion as biased as it is. The truth is there is no reason to invent a god thing/creator/whatever and then give it credit for something it did not do. Claiming god-did-it doesn't actually answer anything but raises millions of more questions that cannot be answered because there is no evidence a god exists. If there was such evidence believers would be presenting it. Since all they do is make more unsupported claims it's obvious they know they have no proof or even evidence. The funny part is that what they claim is evidence varies from religion to religion, from belief to belief, and is often contradictory - and all of it is obviously made up.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 8:49AM #758
jesus2point3
Posts: 248

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:


There is a difference between belief that I hold a winning lottery ticket and a belief that a a god exists.  The difference is that lottery tickets do pay off, so they are plausible.  It may be improbable, but at least we know someone is going to win, that is a fact.  It is not a fact that any of the 5000+ gods in man's history exist in reality.  Belief in one, or more of them, is implausible.  That is completely irrational.


In reality there's not that much difference at all. While it may be true that you HOPE for some CHANGE when you buy a lottery ticket, the reality is that the majority do not;


but for those who take responsibility for all they think & do, the pay off is a CHANGE in attitude, and the HOPE for something else when all is said & done, that neither you or I will know, until that moment comes.


To put it another way, statistically those who have a strong belief in God, and live their faith too, are happier than those who don't. Since we are nothing but finite beings, with nothing but time on our hands, in my mind those who are happiest have won the lottery, without purchasing any ticket, regardless what they believe.

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

All belief is uncertain.


agreed.

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

At best we should treat our belief as tentative and be willing to let a belief go at any moment.


agreed.

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

 Some belief may be well supported with data and highly probably.


If there is supporting data, would that not be knowledge then? Or do you believe that knowledge does not exist?

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

 Other belief are complete nonsense, and highly improbable.


agreed.

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

 So not all belief is the same.


agreed.

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

When I say I am free of belief, I meant that in the context of religious belief.


And when I say you are a believe, whether you agree with me or not, I'm talking about your perception of reality

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

 But I am aware that belief is temporary, and we should avoid getting emotionally attached since we may be in error.


agreed.


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

I notice you still fail to explain how I prove your points.  Could that be because I don't?



In reality it could be because you haven't analyzed the words I've used, and reflected on the ones you use also. could it be that you've assumed more than you know?

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2 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 11:01AM #759
F1fan
Posts: 11,611

May 21, 2012 -- 8:49AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

In reality there's not that much difference at all.



Only on the functional level where a person is making a judgment about a specific concept.


While it may be true that you HOPE for some CHANGE when you buy a lottery ticket, the reality is that the majority do not;


but for those who take responsibility for all they think & do, the pay off is a CHANGE in attitude, and the HOPE for something else when all is said & done, that neither you or I will know, until that moment comes.



This misses the point.  Lottery tickets actually pay off, there is a real consequence.  That a person believes they have the winning ticket may be a long shot, for one person it will be true.  That is higher odds than belief in some idea for which there is no real consequence.  If you want to talk about attitude, well that can come about through total fantasy or acknowledging reality.  That aim is to set a mental state, not trying to assess what is true in reality via judgment.


To put it another way, statistically those who have a strong belief in God, and live their faith too, are happier than those who don't.



Or seem to be.  I would argue that those who don't use religious imagery to cope with life challenges will take on more personal responsibility to deal with the full brunt of reality.  I can see where theists might seem happier, but likely due to deferring stress with distractions.


Since we are nothing but finite beings, with nothing but time on our hands, in my mind those who are happiest have won the lottery, without purchasing any ticket, regardless what they believe.


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

 Some belief may be well supported with data and highly probably.


If there is supporting data, would that not be knowledge then? Or do you believe that knowledge does not exist?



Knowledge is verifiable with multiple sources, such as historic figures.  Or the use of the scientific method that uses a statistical basis.  We can't say we know about something that isn't verifiable.  For example, germ theory was once considered to be bunk by many doctors.  Pasteur believed disease was caused by unseen organisms, but could not verifiy it, so it was not knowledge that others could be informed about.  Pasteur conducted many tests and was eventually able to show that these organisms existed and caused disease.  Then it became knowledge.  We also see bits of evidence for ghosts and Bigfoot, and many believe they exist.  But it isn't knowledge.  Bigfoot is at least plausible since it isn't supernatural.  there may be data, but it is far from being conclusive and knowledge.


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

When I say I am free of belief, I meant that in the context of religious belief.


And when I say you are a believe, whether you agree with me or not, I'm talking about your perception of reality



How anyone perceives reality is a matter of how they process and render sensory data.  Much of this processing is the filters we employ.  For example many people assume gods exist and will interpret events as being tied to a god's will.  If a child dies, it is god's will.  But for those like me who don't frame life experience through these filters the death of a child is what it is, tragic but typical in life.  Again, I am referring to religious belief, which is not based on data or real life experience, rather learned cultural abstractions that people adopt for the sake of identity and conformity.


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

I notice you still fail to explain how I prove your points.  Could that be because I don't?


In reality it could be because you haven't analyzed the words I've used, and reflected on the ones you use also. could it be that you've assumed more than you know?



Could be?  So you are not sure.  Why don't you think about it some more and get back to me when you are sure.  Maybe the problem is in your mind, have you considered that?

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2 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 11:11PM #760
jesus2point3
Posts: 248

May 22, 2012 -- 11:01AM, F1fan wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 8:49AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

In reality there's not that much difference at all.



Only on the functional level where a person is making a judgment about a specific concept.


While it may be true that you HOPE for some CHANGE when you buy a lottery ticket, the reality is that the majority do not;


but for those who take responsibility for all they think & do, the pay off is a CHANGE in attitude, and the HOPE for something else when all is said & done, that neither you or I will know, until that moment comes.



This misses the point.  Lottery tickets actually pay off, there is a real consequence.  That a person believes they have the winning ticket may be a long shot, for one person it will be true.  That is higher odds than belief in some idea for which there is no real consequence.  If you want to talk about attitude, well that can come about through total fantasy or acknowledging reality.  That aim is to set a mental state, not trying to assess what is true in reality via judgment.


It's not I who has missed the point about the reality that's all around us. While some may believe the change they might receive if they win the lottery will give them all they hope for, there are others who know that nothing ever changes, regardless what you hope for.


You're still a finite being with a beginning and an end, with nothing but time on your hands. You'll have moments of happiness, and moments of sadness, and every emotion in between, but for those who desire some peace of mind, before they rest in peace, accepting reality just as it is, will get you through your life, whether on not you're rich or poor, or anything in between.
But you've gotta' understand my friend that there are actually 2 realities, the conceptual & the physical, or what we call in Islam - the seen & unseen too.

May 22, 2012 -- 11:01AM, F1fan wrote:

 


To put it another way, statistically those who have a strong belief in God, and live their faith too, are happier than those who don't.



Or seem to be.  I would argue that those who don't use religious imagery to cope with life challenges will take on more personal responsibility to deal with the full brunt of reality.  I can see where theists might seem happier, but likely due to deferring stress with distractions.


In reality we have many distractions in this society that we live in, regardless what anyone believes.
Entertainment serves to distract everyone, while the powers that be manipulate the minds of those who HOPE for some CHANGE.

May 21, 2012 -- 8:49AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


Since we are nothing but finite beings, with nothing but time on our hands, in my mind those who are happiest have won the lottery, without purchasing any ticket, regardless what they believe.


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

 Some belief may be well supported with data and highly probably.



If there is supporting data, would that not be knowledge then? Or do you believe that knowledge does not exist?


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:


Knowledge is verifiable with multiple sources, such as historic figures.  Or the use of the scientific method that uses a statistical basis.


Muhammad (PBUH) is a historical figure, and there are multiple sources that confirm the man spoke the truth.


Don't confuse the scientific method with statistical analysis. They are not the same thing. I've already told you the statistics prove that those who believe are happier than those who don't, and don't forget that statistically speaking, the vast majority of humanity believes in a higher being, and yet it doesn't convince you of the truth.



May 22, 2012 -- 11:01AM, F1fan wrote:

We can't say we know about something that isn't verifiable.  For example, germ theory was once considered to be bunk by many doctors.  Pasteur believed disease was caused by unseen organisms, but could not verifiy it, so it was not knowledge that others could be informed about.  Pasteur conducted many tests and was eventually able to show that these organisms existed and caused disease.  Then it became knowledge.  We also see bits of evidence for ghosts and Bigfoot, and many believe they exist.  But it isn't knowledge.  Bigfoot is at least plausible since it isn't supernatural.  there may be data, but it is far from being conclusive and knowledge.


I don't believe in bigfoot or ghosts, regardless what others think. The evidence for both is inconclusive at best, and at worst much of it is simply a hoax.


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

When I say I am free of belief, I meant that in the context of religious belief.



And when I say you are a believe, whether you agree with me or not, I'm talking about your perception of reality


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:


How anyone perceives reality is a matter of how they process and render sensory data.  Much of this processing is the filters we employ.  For example many people assume gods exist and will interpret events as being tied to a god's will.  If a child dies, it is god's will.  But for those like me who don't frame life experience through these filters the death of a child is what it is, tragic but typical in life.  Again, I am referring to religious belief, which is not based on data or real life experience, rather learned cultural abstractions that people adopt for the sake of identity and conformity.




What one may call God's will, another may say it was luck, and still others may claim it was coincidence, but in reality it makes no difference to me. Each 'reason' is part of the conceptual reality, that some use to explain the physical reality that happens all the time.


As for cultural abstarctions adopted for the sake of identity & conformity, that's another subject all together. We are individuals who congregate in collectives based on what we believe we have in common. These collectives take on many forms, from gangs to corporations, countries, and religions. There are a few religions of man that can bring humanity together. Islam is one that confirms the existence of all the others, of that you can be sure of. The Surahs of the Noble Qur'an can help you to understand, but you've gotta' open your mind, get your head out of the sand, and read between the lines.
It's merely a book about the different mindsets of man, if you can't grasp the concept known as ALLAH. 


In my mind God is reason, and the truth can hurt sometimes. Science tries to find the answer for everything, and I've already concluded there is. Therefore there's no reason to blame others for what you've done to yourself, if you HOPE for some CHANGE in this world.
I accepted reality for what it is for many years before I knew there was a God, but then I gained additional knowledge, and have logically concluded there is ONE.


Knowledge is the key to understanding me, but it'd take a face to face conversation to convey it. It's done in the give & take of conversation my friend, as it takes place in reality, and not in virtual reality, which is where we are at the moment. 


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:

I notice you still fail to explain how I prove your points.  Could that be because I don't?

May 21, 2012 -- 8:49AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


In reality it could be because you haven't analyzed the words I've used, and reflected on the ones you use also. could it be that you've assumed more than you know?


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:16AM, F1fan wrote:


Could be?  So you are not sure.  Why don't you think about it some more and get back to me when you are sure.  Maybe the problem is in your mind, have you considered that?



Of course I'm not sure what goes on in your mind, it's yours not mine don't you know? We may see the same light on the screen, but what we perceive is based on where we've been in space & time, and what has entered into our minds.

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