Post Reply
Page 72 of 76  •  Prev 1 ... 70 71 72 73 74 ... 76 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Hatcher's Proof of the Existence of God
3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:18PM #711
F1fan
Posts: 11,738

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:09PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

You, ironically, berate what you see as "opinon" by expressing, well, pure opinon. And yes, you are proving my points. Thanks again.



It's a fact that you are interpreting humans as being something more special than other animals. You insist it is obvious.  What is obvious is that humans have higher intelliegnce and capable of abstract thought.  That doesn't mean anything transcending nature.  It IS nature.  If you want to insist there is something obvious in how you see humans, please explain in detail, with evidence.  


And how am I proving your points?  You fail to explain how I'm doing that.  If I said you're acting like a cat, and you ask how, I have an obligation to explain that claim of mine.  So please explan how I'm proing your points.


Furthermore, "imagination," a rejection of ignorance, the sheer joy of knoweldge, the deep bliss of putting what we have so graciously been given to its full use is exactly what I'm talking about.



Yet you actually said that I get too involved in the details, and ignore the bigger picture.  However, in reality, you can't get a valid bigger picture without details.


I see willfull ignorance and a fear of limitless horizons as nothing short of sheer blasphemy.



Well details offset ignorance, so why are you advocating against them?  And limitless horizons have to be within reality.  Otherwise you can get lost in all sorts of fiction.


That's the point you keep missing, because you have such a narrow, trained view of what "religion" even is.



Religion has little to do with anything in reality.  It is a personal set of beliefs.  And believers may or may not allow themselves to be educated on matters of fact.


For God's sake (no pun intended) free your mind. 




Free from what, exactly?  It's already free from belief.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:34AM #712
mountain_man
Posts: 39,756

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:

Well details offset ignorance, so why are you advocating against them?  And limitless horizons have to be within reality.  Otherwise you can get lost in all sorts of fiction.


That's right, those pesky details are what helps us separate reality from fantasy. Since the god idea is lacking in any kind of facts, those that believe in gods have to find away to get around the facts. They do that by giving their fantasies the same weight as facts.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 7:58AM #713
jesus2point3
Posts: 248

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:


It's a fact that you are interpreting humans as being something more special than other animals. You insist it is obvious.  What is obvious is that humans have higher intelliegnce and capable of abstract thought.  That doesn't mean anything transcending nature.  It IS nature.  If you want to insist there is something obvious in how you see humans, please explain in detail, with evidence.


In reality that's the truth that I've been telling you all along, but you seem to believe that I am wrong. I've merely used different words to say the same thing as you, but it appears to mess with your mind. There's a simple reason for that, my friend.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:


And how am I proving your points?  You fail to explain how I'm doing that.  If I said you're acting like a cat, and you ask how, I have an obligation to explain that claim of mine.  So please explan how I'm proing your points.


Furthermore, "imagination," a rejection of ignorance, the sheer joy of knoweldge, the deep bliss of putting what we have so graciously been given to its full use is exactly what I'm talking about.



Yet you actually said that I get too involved in the details, and ignore the bigger picture.  However, in reality, you can't get a valid bigger picture without details.


While some people say the devil is in the details, in reality I'm not one of them.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:


I see willfull ignorance and a fear of limitless horizons as nothing short of sheer blasphemy.



Well details offset ignorance, so why are you advocating against them?  And limitless horizons have to be within reality.  Otherwise you can get lost in all sorts of fiction.


We agree, once again!

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:


That's the point you keep missing, because you have such a narrow, trained view of what "religion" even is.



Religion has little to do with anything in reality.  It is a personal set of beliefs.  And believers may or may not allow themselves to be educated on matters of fact.


Now is the time we'll just have to agree to disagree, for in reality you're wrong my friend.


Religion helps to explain exactly what's going on, and the best one tells it like it is. I don't imagine a world that's never been, nor do I dream the impossible dream. I've merely watched the wheels go round & round, and then I explain the reality that surrounds us.

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:


For God's sake (no pun intended) free your mind. 




Free from what, exactly?  It's already free from belief.



Once again you've lied to yourself, because everybody has beliefs. You may call it something else, and think you know it all, but others manipulate your mind all the time as they HOPE for a little CHANGE . . .


. . . whether you like it, or not.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:16AM #714
F1fan
Posts: 11,738

Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:58AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:


It's a fact that you are interpreting humans as being something more special than other animals. You insist it is obvious.  What is obvious is that humans have higher intelliegnce and capable of abstract thought.  That doesn't mean anything transcending nature.  It IS nature.  If you want to insist there is something obvious in how you see humans, please explain in detail, with evidence.


In reality that's the truth that I've been telling you all along, but you seem to believe that I am wrong. I've merely used different words to say the same thing as you, but it appears to mess with your mind. There's a simple reason for that, my friend.



What you are saying and mean doesn't mess with my mind in any way.  As I've pointed out you simply have religious beliefs that you attempt to impose on what we observe around us.  The difference is that there is no justification for your interpretation of what any of us observe.  We who have no ulterior motive to validate religious beliefs do not interpret nature the way you do.


Once again you've lied to yourself, because everybody has beliefs. You may call it something else, and think you know it all, but others manipulate your mind all the time as they HOPE for a little CHANGE . . .


. . . whether you like it, or not.




There is a difference between belief that I hold a winning lottery ticket and a belief that a a god exists.  The difference is that lottery tickets do pay off, so they are plausible.  It may be improbable, but at least we know someone is going to win, that is a fact.  It is not a fact that any of the 5000+ gods in man's history exist in reality.  Belief in one, or more of them, is implausible.  That is completely irrational.


All belief is uncertain.  At beast we should treat our belief as tentative and be willing to let a belief go at any moment.  Some belief may be well supported with data and highly probably.  Other belief are complete nonsense, and highly improbable.  So not all belief is the same.  When I say I am free of belief, I meant that in the context of religious belief.  But I am aware that belief is temporary, and we should avoid getting emotionally attached since we may be in error.


I notice you still fail to explain how I prove your points.  Could that be because I don't?

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:24AM #715
F1fan
Posts: 11,738

Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:58AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

While some people say the devil is in the details, in reality I'm not one of them.



The devil is in the details because it tends to invalidate religious claims about nature.


Now is the time we'll just have to agree to disagree, for in reality you're wrong my friend.


Religion helps to explain exactly what's going on, and the best one tells it like it is. I don't imagine a world that's never been, nor do I dream the impossible dream. I've merely watched the wheels go round & round, and then I explain the reality that surrounds us.



Of course this is what you want to believe.  You have invested a lot in your religious beliefs, and decided they are true.  You have a set of beliefs that make you feel emotionally satified about life, and you have to defend it.  The more you are shown that belief in these ideas is irrational the more you have to retreat into delusion and justification.  This creates tension, and may result in you being even more certain you are correct.  This is a reaction to reduce the stress.  the facts and observations we all make do not back up your position.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 2:52PM #716
redshifted
Posts: 2,283

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:24AM, F1fan wrote:


Of course this is what you want to believe.  You have invested a lot in your religious beliefs, and decided they are true.  You have a set of beliefs that make you feel emotionally satified about life, and you have to defend it.  The more you are shown that belief in these ideas is irrational the more you have to retreat into delusion and justification.  This creates tension, and may result in you being even more certain you are correct.  This is a reaction to reduce the stress.  the facts and observations we all make do not back up your position.




Exactly. This is why it's bad to tie your identity to any belief. When the belief is scrutinized or knocked down the individual feels knocked down, so they dig in. It's best not to become emotionally invested in beliefs so they are easily abandoned when shown to be nonsense or unsupported.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 4:44AM #717
Blü
Posts: 25,091

Lilwabbit left on his two-week journey on 16 April and resumed posting on 24 April.


Just not here.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 1:22PM #718
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,905

May 4, 2012 -- 4:44AM, Blü wrote:


Lilwabbit left on his two-week journey on 16 April and resumed posting on 24 April.


Just not here.




Ah, missing me already? If you want me here, just pull me by my sleeve. Don't be afraid.


It's telling that I bug you even when I'm absent. It's even more telling that you actually bother to count the days of my absence and follow where I post. I've definitely made an impact.


Mine was the last substantive post. You responded with a one-liner which attempts to cast suspicion on my intentions.[...] Feel free to address my points and I'll examine whether you are actually addressing them or going around the mulberry bush like you did with your next snippet of a post on induction. You didn't even begin to address my points.[...]



Regards,


Wabbit

Moderated by Jcarlinbn on May 04, 2012 - 02:25PM
"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 10:01PM #719
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

"Everything within the Universe had a cause."  Principle of Cause and Effect.


We are finite beings that cannot know everything there is to know in the Universe.  If there is anything outside of the Universe, we cannot know it.


What if there is something within the Universe that is not caused?  The problem with Hatcher's Proof is that an assumption must be made that everything must be caused.  How would, say, a rock that has always existed, resided beyond our visibility horizon, and happened to cause the Universe, not be equally as valid as God?


There is also the problem (I don't know if it has been discussed, it is a very long thread) that the Big Bang is as far as we go in our understanding of the Universe.  We can't say with certainty nothing existed beyond that point.  We just know there was an expansion of space.  Since the possibility of the Universe being an infinite regression is a possibility, that automatically excludes Hatcher's Proof as being the only logical proof.


Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 6:53PM #720
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:18PM, F1fan wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:09PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

You, ironically, berate what you see as "opinon" by expressing, well, pure opinon. And yes, you are proving my points. Thanks again.



It's a fact that you are interpreting humans as being something more special than other animals. You insist it is obvious.  What is obvious is that humans have higher intelliegnce and capable of abstract thought.  That doesn't mean anything transcending nature.  It IS nature.  If you want to insist there is something obvious in how you see humans, please explain in detail, with evidence.  


And how am I proving your points?  You fail to explain how I'm doing that.  If I said you're acting like a cat, and you ask how, I have an obligation to explain that claim of mine.  So please explan how I'm proing your points.


Furthermore, "imagination," a rejection of ignorance, the sheer joy of knoweldge, the deep bliss of putting what we have so graciously been given to its full use is exactly what I'm talking about.



Yet you actually said that I get too involved in the details, and ignore the bigger picture.  However, in reality, you can't get a valid bigger picture without details.


I see willfull ignorance and a fear of limitless horizons as nothing short of sheer blasphemy.



Well details offset ignorance, so why are you advocating against them?  And limitless horizons have to be within reality.  Otherwise you can get lost in all sorts of fiction.


That's the point you keep missing, because you have such a narrow, trained view of what "religion" even is.



Religion has little to do with anything in reality.  It is a personal set of beliefs.  And believers may or may not allow themselves to be educated on matters of fact.


For God's sake (no pun intended) free your mind. 




Free from what, exactly?  It's already free from belief.




You're still not getting it. I'm not turned off by details, as such. In fact, I love them.


I'm talking about not getting bogged down in nit-picky arguments -- by which virtually anything can be made to sound good -- but rather pulling back and looking at the general premise of what is being proposed.


Right off the bat, you proposed that nature was somehow -- without will, purpose or reason in doing so -- able to produce something that transcends nature, can reflect upon it, understand it, alter it, bend it to its will and indeed, can go completely counter to it.


And that's non-sensical. And that's just one example.


I'm saying, when held up to big picture scrutiny of what's really being proposed, athesim isn't nearly so sexy as you folks are trying to make it out to be. 


It's simply another idea, and not a particularly compelling one at that, IMO. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 72 of 76  •  Prev 1 ... 70 71 72 73 74 ... 76 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook