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Switch to Forum Live View Hatcher's Proof of the Existence of God
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:58PM #681
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Blü wrote:


mytmouse


mytmouse: We, obviously and self-evidently, posess a mighty power than transends mere biology.


blü:  If we possess this power, why do we need large brains at all?
If we possess this power, what can it do that large brains can't?
On what examinable evidence are your answers based?


mytmouse: (FACEPALM)


None out of three responded to.  All evaded.


So it's not just me who thinks you're talking through your trousers - you agree.


Very curious.




Don't ask questions that have glaringly obvious answers. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:01PM #682
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:58PM, Ken wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:12PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

God is a God of reason and intelligence. I understand, in fact, reason to be the first faculty of man, from God.


Evolution, and our brains, were/are perhaps the mechanisms by which that happened, and continues to.



Evolution is a natural process. If it is the mechanism whereby reason and intelligence developed, why drag God into it? How would you distinguish an intelligence that evolved by purely natural means from an intelligence bestowed by God? The features that distinguish them would be your evidence, not the bare fact that humans possess a certain degree of intelligence.




I never said evolution wasn't natural, or a process.


You're getting hung up on the "natrual" thing. I've already stated, I don't belive in magic. I've acknowledged the hardware and mechanisms. Good. Now, let's move on.


Dogs, cats, apes, dolphins and even ants possess varying degrees of "intelligence." As do humans.


However, we obviously possess something that transends that. And the almost obtuse refusal to even acknowledge that -- and the implications that follow -- strikes me as, well, rather un-intelligent. 


Hence, one of my major problems with atheism and materialism touting themselves as so "rational."

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:04PM #683
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:11AM, Fodaoson wrote:


…Hatcher terms it, a "minimalist" concept of God. He is essentially making a case for the existence of a single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe itself. Some may reasonably question whether "a single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe itself" qualifies as "God". Many an atheist may not have any issue with such a "God" but would rather question the label. A theist, on the other hand, would recognize that a "single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe" can be logically translated into religious terminology as "the One and Self-Subsisting Creator of the universe"…


“of a single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe itself. “   From nothingness, some thingness, or from chaos came existence, order . Whatever the event, the cause, the spark, is what hatcher labels’ god’.   I do not expect atheist to accept it as a god and I do not expect persons of faith to accept it.  Atheist can only accept [              ]  and people of faith need a creator involver. Only when a person is fully in the state of being dead, will that person know  or not know the absolute.




Well, I can't argue with your conclusion. 


We'll get the answer when we're dead. 


Then again, I also think there will be more questions. For me, Hell would be running out of questions. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:09PM #684
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:47PM, F1fan wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:12PM, mytmouse57 wrote:



"Seemingly impossible" might be a better term?



So what you mean is that ignorance and lack of imagination drives some people's attitude about what we can achieve.  It "seems" impossible, but in reality it turned out to be totally possible.  And our achievements are true in reality.  We don't make anything happen that is outside nature itself.


Still, you just proved my point. We had the wisdom and understanding. "Good old reason and science" as you put it.



Nothing I said proves anything you claim.


God is a God of reason and intelligence. I understand, in fact, reason to be the first faculty of man, from God.



Gods don't exist in reality, only in human imagination.  So you don't understand anything, rather you believe something.  That you don't realize this is a failure on your part.  we can only understand verifiable truths, which means objective truths, facts.  Personal truth isn't an understanding, it's belief.  And it is irrelevant beyond yourself.


"Problems" might be opportunities, depending upon how you look at it.



Again, you have this tendency for generous intepretation that doesn't follow the data, rather an intent to validate your religious beliefs.  We get to reject your views on that basis.


In any case, you're nit-picking details, in an apparently lazy attempt to miss the bigger picture.



no, it is acknowledging the evidence and data.  It is data that is the your enemy because it does not fit your religious beliefs.  Of course you want a vague set of data so that you can poorly interpret it to fit your beliefs.  That isn't reasonable, nor intelligent.  Why not just follow the evidence and data?


I have every confidence to think God exists. Thanks, btw, for reinforcing that.




I don't think you do given what you advocate on these threads.  You avoid details of data and evidence, and advocate for sloppy religious interpretations that reason can cut to pieces.  If you really thought a god existed and was based on evidence, you would show us.  You haven't, and you must be aware that you avoid doing just that.




You, ironically, berate what you see as "opinon" by expressing, well, pure opinon. And yes, you are proving my points. Thanks again.


Furthermore, "imagination," a rejection of ignorance, the sheer joy of knoweldge, the deep bliss of putting what we have so graciously been given to its full use is exactly what I'm talking about.


I see willfull ignorance and a fear of limitless horizons as nothing short of sheer blasphemy. 


That's the point you keep missing, because you have such a narrow, trained view of what "religion" even is. 


For God's sake (no pun intended) free your mind. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:13PM #685
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:01PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:58PM, Ken wrote:

Evolution is a natural process. If it is the mechanism whereby reason and intelligence developed, why drag God into it? How would you distinguish an intelligence that evolved by purely natural means from an intelligence bestowed by God? The features that distinguish them would be your evidence, not the bare fact that humans possess a certain degree of intelligence.




I never said evolution wasn't natural, or a process.


You're getting hung up on the "natrual" thing. I've already stated, I don't belive in magic. I've acknowledged the hardware and mechanisms. Good. Now, let's move on.


Dogs, cats, apes, dolphins and even ants possess varying degrees of "intelligence." As do humans.


However, we obviously possess something that transends that. And the almost obtuse refusal to even acknowledge that -- and the implications that follow -- strikes me as, well, rather un-intelligent.



I don't know anything about transcendence. Animals have various degrees and kinds of intelligence. Human intelligence differs from dog intelligence just as dog intelligence differs from dolphin intelligence. Is there anything about human intelligence that couldn't have evolved without divine intervention? If so, what? It won't do to just say "It's obvious." You have to present a reasoned argument.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:15PM #686
Blü
Posts: 25,062

mytmouse


Don't ask questions that have glaringly obvious answers.


What's the glaringly obvious answer to the question -


If we possess this power, why do we need large brains at all?


What's the glaringly obvious answer to the question -


If we possess this power, what can it do that large brains can't.


I concede there's a glaringly obvious answer to the last question -


On what examinable evidence do you base your answers?


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:18PM #687
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:13PM, Ken wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:01PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:58PM, Ken wrote:

Evolution is a natural process. If it is the mechanism whereby reason and intelligence developed, why drag God into it? How would you distinguish an intelligence that evolved by purely natural means from an intelligence bestowed by God? The features that distinguish them would be your evidence, not the bare fact that humans possess a certain degree of intelligence.




I never said evolution wasn't natural, or a process.


You're getting hung up on the "natrual" thing. I've already stated, I don't belive in magic. I've acknowledged the hardware and mechanisms. Good. Now, let's move on.


Dogs, cats, apes, dolphins and even ants possess varying degrees of "intelligence." As do humans.


However, we obviously possess something that transends that. And the almost obtuse refusal to even acknowledge that -- and the implications that follow -- strikes me as, well, rather un-intelligent.



I don't know anything about transcendence. Animals have various degrees and kinds of intelligence. Human intelligence differs from dog intelligence just as dog intelligence differs from dolphin intelligence. Is there anything about human intelligence that couldn't have evolved without divine intervention? If so, what?




What makes you think evolution isn't divine intervention, as such?


Again, "intelligence" is one thing. But we understand. We know. 


Or, at least we have the capcity to do so -- and the opportunity to willfully develop that, through both our own individual and collective efforts. 


Willfull ignorance chaps me as much as I suspect it does you. "Creationism" is, well.... well, I'd rather not go off in a streak of profanity... but you get the idea. 


However, I don't dispair over said ignorance.


I hope you don't either. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:21PM #688
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:15PM, Blü wrote:


mytmouse


Don't ask questions that have glaringly obvious answers.


What's the glaringly obvious answer to the question -


If we possess this power, why do we need large brains at all?


What's the glaringly obvious answer to the question -


If we possess this power, what can it do that large brains can't.


I concede there's a glaringly obvious answer to the last question -


On what examinable evidence do you base your answers?





 (Sigh)


You're still obsessing over the hardware. I thought the discussion had moved past that.


iPods need music, but music does not "need" iPods. 


We needed umbilical cords while in the womb -- but do we need them now?


As to your last question -- what goes on in your own mind every second of every day, and your ability to percive, know and understand. 


Any refusal to acknowlege that falls upon you.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:23PM #689
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:18PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:13PM, Ken wrote:

I don't know anything about transcendence. Animals have various degrees and kinds of intelligence. Human intelligence differs from dog intelligence just as dog intelligence differs from dolphin intelligence. Is there anything about human intelligence that couldn't have evolved without divine intervention? If so, what?



What makes you think evolution isn't divine intervention, as such?


There is no indication of that. The process can be easily and completely explained without recourse to divine intervention.


Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:18PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Again, "intelligence" is one thing. But we understand. We know.


And? My neighbor's Labrador retriever knows things too.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:23PM #690
Blü
Posts: 25,062

mytmouse


So what are the answers?


If we possess this power, why do we need large brains at all?


If we possess this power, what can it do that large brains can't.


Or were you just talking out of the back of your pants?

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