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Switch to Forum Live View Hatcher's Proof of the Existence of God
2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:02PM #671
F1fan
Posts: 11,439

Apr 26, 2012 -- 7:54PM, mytmouse57 wrote:



Well, simply observe, and think about it.


We are able to think scientifically, to pierce that veil, so to speak, and make the impossible possible.




No.  Science can't make the impossible possible.  The impossible isn't possible by any means.  Airplanes were implausible in the 1800's, but not because flight isn't possible.  It was due to limitations in knowledge and material.  Good old reason and science made it happen.  No magic.  No religion.


Physically, we are very weak and unimpressive creatures. Virtually every other animal is far better endowed than we are for mere survial, much less long term residency upon the planet.



Perhaps in the "brute" category.  But wouldn't you agree that we are more impressive than mice? Both humans and mice have had excellent evolutionary histories for various reasons.  We humans had our brain, and were able to take advantage of situations that other animals could not.


And yet, we are the only creature to deliberately leave the globe. We have done great, and terrible things. We can defy virtually every parameter of our physical existence, save a few, such as sleep and death.



Yet many humans suffer from extreme anxiety issues that stem from the  primitive parts of our brain, a part we really don't need that much since we evolved high intelligence.  But nature has no plan, so we are stuck with this overactive emotion center that creates problems for many people.


We, obviously and self-evidently, posess a mighty power than transends mere biology.




Let me guess: a god?  Is that what you are implying, but don't have the courage to come out and say it?  If so, you aren't very confident, are you?  And that's supposedly with the god on your side. Maybe you have doubts.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:11PM #672
mountain_man
Posts: 39,475

Apr 26, 2012 -- 6:24PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Wisdom, reason and understanding present ample evidence. Right under your nose.


Yes, those provide ample evidence that the whole god idea is nonsensical and stultifying.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:12PM #673
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:02PM, F1fan wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 7:54PM, mytmouse57 wrote:



Well, simply observe, and think about it.


We are able to think scientifically, to pierce that veil, so to speak, and make the impossible possible.




No.  Science can't make the impossible possible.  The impossible isn't possible by any means.  Airplanes were implausible in the 1800's, but not because flight isn't possible.  It was due to limitations in knowledge and material.  Good old reason and science made it happen.  No magic.  No religion.


Physically, we are very weak and unimpressive creatures. Virtually every other animal is far better endowed than we are for mere survial, much less long term residency upon the planet.



Perhaps in the "brute" category.  But wouldn't you agree that we are more impressive than mice? Both humans and mice have had excellent evolutionary histories for various reasons.  We humans had our brain, and were able to take advantage of situations that other animals could not.


And yet, we are the only creature to deliberately leave the globe. We have done great, and terrible things. We can defy virtually every parameter of our physical existence, save a few, such as sleep and death.



Yet many humans suffer from extreme anxiety issues that stem from the  primitive parts of our brain, a part we really don't need that much since we evolved high intelligence.  But nature has no plan, so we are stuck with this overactive emotion center that creates problems for many people.


We, obviously and self-evidently, posess a mighty power than transends mere biology.




Let me guess: a god?  Is that what you are implying, but don't have the courage to come out and say it?  If so, you aren't very confident, are you?  And that's supposedly with the god on your side. Maybe you have doubts.





"Seemingly impossible" might be a better term? Still, you just proved my point. We had the wisdom and understanding. "Good old reason and science" as you put it.


 God is a God of reason and intelligence. I understand, in fact, reason to be the first faculty of man, from God.


Evolution, and our brains, were/are perhaps the mechanisms by which that happened, and continues to.


"Problems" might be opportunities, depending upon how you look at it. In any case, you're nit-picking details, in an apparently lazy attempt to miss the bigger picture. (which includes, by the way, a continually better understanding of and treatment for anxiety disorders. As well as numerous other disorders that cause what we commonly call mental illness.)


"Created in God's image," yes. What does that have to do with confidence?


 I have every confidence to think God exists. Thanks, btw, for reinforcing that.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:13PM #674
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:11PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 6:24PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Wisdom, reason and understanding present ample evidence. Right under your nose.


Yes, those provide ample evidence that the whole god idea is nonsensical and stultifying.





In your opinon. Wink

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:15PM #675
mountain_man
Posts: 39,475

Apr 26, 2012 -- 9:39PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Classic examples of religion clouding the thinking processes.


They have to do that. Some people just need a magical Universe with gods and all kinds of wonderous made up things. For the rest of us, reality does just fine; we live, we die, and the world goes on without us.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:47PM #676
F1fan
Posts: 11,439

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:12PM, mytmouse57 wrote:



"Seemingly impossible" might be a better term?



So what you mean is that ignorance and lack of imagination drives some people's attitude about what we can achieve.  It "seems" impossible, but in reality it turned out to be totally possible.  And our achievements are true in reality.  We don't make anything happen that is outside nature itself.


Still, you just proved my point. We had the wisdom and understanding. "Good old reason and science" as you put it.



Nothing I said proves anything you claim.


God is a God of reason and intelligence. I understand, in fact, reason to be the first faculty of man, from God.



Gods don't exist in reality, only in human imagination.  So you don't understand anything, rather you believe something.  That you don't realize this is a failure on your part.  we can only understand verifiable truths, which means objective truths, facts.  Personal truth isn't an understanding, it's belief.  And it is irrelevant beyond yourself.


"Problems" might be opportunities, depending upon how you look at it.



Again, you have this tendency for generous intepretation that doesn't follow the data, rather an intent to validate your religious beliefs.  We get to reject your views on that basis.


In any case, you're nit-picking details, in an apparently lazy attempt to miss the bigger picture.



no, it is acknowledging the evidence and data.  It is data that is the your enemy because it does not fit your religious beliefs.  Of course you want a vague set of data so that you can poorly interpret it to fit your beliefs.  That isn't reasonable, nor intelligent.  Why not just follow the evidence and data?


I have every confidence to think God exists. Thanks, btw, for reinforcing that.




I don't think you do given what you advocate on these threads.  You avoid details of data and evidence, and advocate for sloppy religious interpretations that reason can cut to pieces.  If you really thought a god existed and was based on evidence, you would show us.  You haven't, and you must be aware that you avoid doing just that.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:58PM #677
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:12PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

God is a God of reason and intelligence. I understand, in fact, reason to be the first faculty of man, from God.


Evolution, and our brains, were/are perhaps the mechanisms by which that happened, and continues to.



Evolution is a natural process. If it is the mechanism whereby reason and intelligence developed, why drag God into it? How would you distinguish an intelligence that evolved by purely natural means from an intelligence bestowed by God? The features that distinguish them would be your evidence, not the bare fact that humans possess a certain degree of intelligence.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 2:01AM #678
Blü
Posts: 24,971

mytmouse


mytmouse: We, obviously and self-evidently, posess a mighty power than transends mere biology.


blü:  If we possess this power, why do we need large brains at all?
If we possess this power, what can it do that large brains can't?
On what examinable evidence are your answers based?


mytmouse: (FACEPALM)


None out of three responded to.  All evaded.


So it's not just me who thinks you're talking through your trousers - you agree.


Very curious.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 6:11AM #679
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,156

…Hatcher terms it, a "minimalist" concept of God. He is essentially making a case for the existence of a single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe itself. Some may reasonably question whether "a single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe itself" qualifies as "God". Many an atheist may not have any issue with such a "God" but would rather question the label. A theist, on the other hand, would recognize that a "single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe" can be logically translated into religious terminology as "the One and Self-Subsisting Creator of the universe"…


“of a single self-caused cause of the universe that is not the universe itself. “   From nothingness, some thingness, or from chaos came existence, order . Whatever the event, the cause, the spark, is what hatcher labels’ god’.   I do not expect atheist to accept it as a god and I do not expect persons of faith to accept it.  Atheist can only accept [              ]  and people of faith need a creator involver. Only when a person is fully in the state of being dead, will that person know  or not know the absolute.

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:38AM #680
Blü
Posts: 24,971

Fodaoson


There's also the problem that 'self-caused' is a meaningless expression.  This is easily shown - just try to describe meaningfully the sequence of events by which something causes itself.

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