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Switch to Forum Live View The Qur'án on Tolerance and Democracy
3 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2011 - 12:57PM #131
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,926

Howdy IDBC,


Thanks for your long post but you're still beating around the bush. You haven't offered any evidence of any primary source in the 7th century or earlier that has said anything of similar tolerance or more tolerance than the citations I gave you from a demonstrably 7th century work. Ultimately all we have in the way of knowing history is demonstrable extant sources. The rest is just your tainted interpretation of history against my tainted interpretation, and your tainted secondary sources against mine, scribbled by this Ph.D. or that Professor of Whachummacallogy.


I'm not disputing the possibility of other sources saying similar things or the existence of more tolerant sayings in sources that have now been either lost or destroyed. I'm only saying that, given the primary sources that are extant, the Qur'an gives a rather good account of itself in terms of tolerance within the context of the 7th century world.


With kind regards,


LilWabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2011 - 7:59PM #132
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

What I do know however is that in pre-Muhammadian Arabia there were Arab Jewish tribes, there were Arab Christians Tribes, there were Arab Sabean(?)tribes and there were Arab Pagan tribes.   What I also know is that in the Meccan kaaba there were 360 different idols.  


This would indicate to me that there was at least some degree of tolerance.


In Mecca or in Arabia (of the time)?


Why did the first group of Muslims seek help from Christians outside Arabia when they were being persecuted by the polytheists of Mecca if there were Christians in Mecca or even in Arabia? 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I also know that there are few if any non-Muslims citizens in modern day Arabia.


How do you KNOW when you say "if any"? 


Nov 22, 2011 -- 12:43AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Muhammad did no such thing to anyone due to them having a different faith.



Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

Then who did?



Quraish (Pagans) to Muhammad and his companions in faith.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

There are no pagan kaabas in Arabia.


How many pagan kaabas were in Arabia at the time? 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

There are no synoguouges in Arabia.


There were none in Mecca at the time.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

There are no chruches in Arabia.


There were none in Mecca at the time.


Nov 22, 2011 -- 12:43AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


He did not force polytheists to even convert.



Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I didn't say that he forced them to convert. 


I said they were given the option. 


They could convert to Islam. 


The could go into exile.  


Or they could choose to be martyrs for their religion.


That's exactly what polytheists did to the early Musims in Mecca, gave them option to give up their faith or be killed.They had even followed them 325 miles to Madina so that they could kill the Muslims. 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

This is according to the biography written by of Muhammad written by Martin Ling.


What else is there that you haven't quoted? 


Nov 22, 2011 -- 12:43AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


But when he became a leader of Mecca, he went and destroyed their idols in Kaba which he declared as a monotheist place of worship. Intolerance? Maybe in modern standards, but far less intolerant than the polytheists' treatment of Muslims.



Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

From reading Martin Lings biography of Muhammad not only was the pagan kaaba in Mecca destroyed but all the pagan kaabas were destroyed.


How many pagan kaabas were in Mecca? 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I disagree with the claim that the reason that the mean ol demonic polytheists in Mecca or outside of Mecca persecuted Muhammad and his followers because of the faith. 


I agree with the claim.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

The demonic evil polytheists in Mecca did not seem to have a problem with the "people of the book" aka monotheists because of their faith.


But how many of them were there in Mecca at the time? 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

But neither the Christians nor the Jews nor the Zorarations wanted to have the sole right to worship in the kaaba in Mecca.


Because they were not there in Mecca.  


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

What I am claiming is that the opposition of the demonic, evil, ignorant(of Allah the One and Only true God)polytheists was not because of the faith of Muhammad(the saintly messenger of the One and Only true God)but because Muhammad wanted exclusive rights to worhship Allah at the kaaba.


That claim is through ignorance because polytheists had opposed Muhammad and his followers even when they were several hundreds miles away from the kaaba in Mecca. Were they looking for sole rights to worship at the from Madina?   


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

Now wether or not the   demonic, evil, ignorant(of Allah the One and Only true God)polytheists would have violently opposed the saintly and pure Muhammad if he and his almost as saintly and pure companions if they built their own kaaba-mosque in Mecca I don't know.


Yes, you certainly don't know.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I would guess-speculate that they would not have any such objection based on the evidence that their were churches and synogues in Arabia at the time.


There were no churches or synogogues in Mecca. You have no evidence. Muslims had to go out of Mecca to seek help of Christians.    


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

What I am saying is that I can understand why the pagan polytheists resisted with violence the....conversion of the kaaba from a polytheistic place of worship to a monotheistic place of worship.


No, you don't understand that polytheists unleashed violence on Muslims even when they were well away from the kaaba in Mecca and hundreds of miles away in Madina. It was many days and weeks' journey to Madina from Mecca.    


 
 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2011 - 10:42PM #133
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

There was at least one Christian in Mecca.  Waraqa bin Nawfal, Khadija's cousin, was the Meccan Christian scholar who interpreted Muhammad's first revelation for him.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2011 - 11:26PM #134
Idbc
Posts: 4,597

Howdy Ibn


 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 7:59PM, Ibn wrote:


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

What I do know however is that in pre-Muhammadian Arabia there were Arab Jewish tribes, there were Arab Christians Tribes, there were Arab Sabean(?)tribes and there were Arab Pagan tribes.   What I also know is that in the Meccan kaaba there were 360 different idols.  


This would indicate to me that there was at least some degree of tolerance.


In Mecca or in Arabia (of the time)?


Why did the first group of Muslims seek help from Christians outside Arabia when they were being persecuted by the polytheists of Mecca if there were Christians in Mecca or even in Arabia? 


There are two reasons why I think there were Arab Christian tribes both in Mecca and in Arabia. 


There is a story that when Muhammad cleaned out the kaaba he destroyed all the idols except one that was a christian idol.  


There is also a story that when Muhammad had his revelation he had doubts about it and thought it might be a jinn and not an angel.   He told his story to his wife Khadijita who brought him to her sister who was a christian.  


How reliable these two storires are I don't know.  


The other reason I think that there were Christians in Arabia is:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Christians#Cl...


"


Arab Christians are indigenous to the Middle East, with a presence there predating the 7th century Islamic expansion into the Fertile Crescent. There were many Arab tribes which adhered to Christianity beginning with the 1st century, including the Nabateans (who incorporated elements of both Arabs and Arameans), the Ghassanids[10] and the Lakhmids. The latter were of Qahtani origin and spoke Yemeni-Arabic as well as Greek, and who protected the south-eastern frontiers of the Roman and Byzantine Empires in north Arabia.[citation needed]


Nabateans were possibly among the first Arab tribes to arrive to Southern Levant in the first millennium BCE. At first, they were converted to Judaism, during the expansion campaigns of the Hasmonean Kingdom at the first and second centuries BCE. However, by the fourth century Nabateans had converted to Christianity." 


In the New Testament


The New Testament has a biblical account of Arab conversion to Christianity recorded in the book of Acts. When St. Peter preaches to the people of Jerusalem, they ask, "And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? [. . .] both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." (Acts 2:8, 11, English Standard Version).[13][verification needed] Arab Christians are thus one of the oldest Christian communities.


As to why Muhammad did not seek protection from them I don't know.


 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:


I also know that there are few if any non-Muslims citizens in modern day Arabia.



 How do you KNOW when you say "if any"? 



Because it is a possiblilty that there are Christians there who are in the closet. 


Nov 22, 2011 -- 12:43AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Muhammad did no such thing to anyone due to them having a different faith.



Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

Then who did?



Quraish (Pagans) to Muhammad and his companions in faith.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

There are no pagan kaabas in Arabia.



How many pagan kaabas were in Arabia at the time? 


If you read Martin Ling's biography of Muhammad you can find out. 


There was a "red stone", the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman and the "white stone" in the Kaaba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala south of Mecca). Grunebaum in Classical Islam points out that the experience of divinity of that period was often associated with stone fetishes,mountains, special rock formations, or "trees of strange growth. Just as there would be more than one church or synagogue in Arabia there would be more than one kaaba.  The kaaba in Mecca was the most important kaaba. 


 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

There are no synoguouges in Arabia.


There were none in Mecca at the time.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

There are no chruches in Arabia.


There were none in Mecca at the time.


Nov 22, 2011 -- 12:43AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


He did not force polytheists to even convert.



Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I didn't say that he forced them to convert. 


I said they were given the option. 


They could convert to Islam. 


The could go into exile.  


Or they could choose to be martyrs for their religion.



That's exactly what polytheists did to the early Musims in Mecca, gave them option to give up their faith or be killed.They had even followed them 325 miles to Madina so that they could kill the Muslims. 


I agree. But that would make the Muslims no better than the pagans. 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

This is according to the biography written by of Muhammad written by Martin Ling.



What else is there that you haven't quoted?


Read the book and find out for yourself.   


Nov 22, 2011 -- 12:43AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


But when he became a leader of Mecca, he went and destroyed their idols in Kaba which he declared as a monotheist place of worship. Intolerance? Maybe in modern standards, but far less intolerant than the polytheists' treatment of Muslims.



Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

From reading Martin Lings biography of Muhammad not only was the pagan kaaba in Mecca destroyed but all the pagan kaabas were destroyed.


How many pagan kaabas were in Mecca? 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I disagree with the claim that the reason that the mean ol demonic polytheists in Mecca or outside of Mecca persecuted Muhammad and his followers because of the faith. 


I agree with the claim.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

The demonic evil polytheists in Mecca did not seem to have a problem with the "people of the book" aka monotheists because of their faith.



 


But how many of them were there in Mecca at the time? 


How many pagans were there in Mecca at the time.  Tell me all there names. 


 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

But neither the Christians nor the Jews nor the Zorarations wanted to have the sole right to worship in the kaaba in Mecca.



Because they were not there in Mecca. 


How do you know were you there? 


 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:


What I am claiming is that the opposition of the demonic, evil, ignorant(of Allah the One and Only true God)poblytheists was not because of the faith of Muhammad(the saintly messenger of the One and Only true God)but because Muhammad wanted exclusive rights to worhship Allah at the kaaba.



That claim is through ignorance because polytheists had opposed Muhammad and his followers even when they were several hundreds miles away from the kaaba in Mecca.


Were they looking for sole rights to worship at the from Madina?   



Calling the pagans who did not believe Muhammad and were not willing to let him take ove the kaaba is exactly what I mean by demonization.   


There are Christians who call Muslims ignorant because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.   You are just like them.  


 


 


 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

Now wether or not the   demonic, evil, ignorant(of Allah the One and Only true God)polytheists would have violently opposed the saintly and pure Muhammad if he and his almost as saintly and pure companions if they built their own kaaba-mosque in Mecca I don't know.


Yes, you certainly don't know.


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I would guess-speculate that they would not have any such objection based on the evidence that their were churches and synogues in Arabia at the time.



 There were no churches or synogogues in Mecca. You have no evidence. Muslims had to go out of Mecca to seek help of Christians.  


First I didn't say there were any synagouges or churches in "Mecca".   I said there were in Arabia.   


Is it your claim that there were no Christians or no Jews in Arabia? 


  


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

What I am saying is that I can understand why the pagan polytheists resisted with violence the....conversion of the kaaba from a polytheistic place of worship to a monotheistic place of worship.



 No, you don't understand that polytheists unleashed violence on Muslims even when they were well away from the kaaba in Mecca and hundreds of miles away in Madina. It was many days and weeks' journey to Madina from Mecca.   


What I understand is the the reason that the violence was caused in the first place because of Muhammad's insistence that the kaaba be taken over by him.  


Muhammad did not make a kaaba in Medina.  Muhammad made it clear that he wanted the kaaba.   Once he was in Medina he gathered his supporters in a military alliance and was at war with the pagans.  He did not fight a purely defensive war.  He attacked the caravans of the Meccans.   


Again I think that the pagans reacted to the takeover of the kaaba the same as Muslims would react if someone tried to takeover that kaaba from the Muslims today. 


The same way that the adherents of any religion would react if someone else of another religion tried to takeover their sacred place.  


The Jews reacted with violence when the pagan Romans installed symbols of Rome in the temple of Jersurluem.      

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2011 - 3:01AM #135
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:42PM, Miraj wrote:


There was at least one Christian in Mecca.  Waraqa bin Nawfal, Khadija's cousin, was the Meccan Christian scholar who interpreted Muhammad's first revelation for him.



According to IDBC, Christians in Mecca had an idol that Muhammad did not destroy. He is also merely assuming that Waraqa and Khadija had churches in Mecca.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2011 - 5:01AM #136
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Nov 23, 2011 -- 7:59PM, Ibn wrote:


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

What I do know however is that in pre-Muhammadian Arabia there were Arab Jewish tribes, there were Arab Christians Tribes, there were Arab Sabean(?)tribes and there were Arab Pagan tribes.   What I also know is that in the Meccan kaaba there were 360 different idols.  


This would indicate to me that there was at least some degree of tolerance.


In Mecca or in Arabia (of the time)?


Why did the first group of Muslims seek help from Christians outside Arabia when they were being persecuted by the polytheists of Mecca if there were Christians in Mecca or even in Arabia? 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 11:26PM, Idbc wrote:

There are two reasons why I think there were Arab Christian tribes both in Mecca and in Arabia. 


There is a story that when Muhammad cleaned out the kaaba he destroyed all the idols except one that was a christian idol.


Then that means (a) the Christians were not worshipping Allah or Jesus but an idol in the kaaba (were polytheists) and Muhammad was tolerant towards them AND it proves that he did NOT want exclusive rights to worship there, (b) the Christians had no churches in Mecca to worship in but the same kaaba as polytheists at the time. This is called using reason and having a thinking day. What happened to your reasoning and thinking days?


As for churches in Mecca just because a couple of idol worshipping Christians were in Mecca, its wrong to assume that they had churches in Mecca. When I came to Birmingham during the early sixties, there were thousands of Muslims already living here in Birmingham for at least a decade but there wasn't even one mosque here for them to worship in. Every Muslim in Birmingham had to give one week's wages to buy the land for the very first mosque here in 1965.


It is crazy to assume that there were churches in Mecca simply because a couple of Christians with an idol in kaaba and were in Mecca. Even Waraqa, according to Wiki, was worshipping that idol in kaaba instead of some imagined church in Mecca.


The more statements you make here the more you would prove yourself wrong.


  

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2011 - 5:35AM #137
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Nov 22, 2011 -- 12:43AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


He did not force polytheists to even convert.



Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:04AM, Idbc wrote:

I didn't say that he forced them to convert. 


I said they were given the option. 


They could convert to Islam. 


The could go into exile.  


Or they could choose to be martyrs for their religion.



That's exactly what polytheists did to the early Musims in Mecca, gave them option to give up their faith or be killed.They had even followed them 325 miles to Madina so that they could kill the Muslims. 


Nov 23, 2011 -- 11:26PM, Idbc wrote:

I agree. But that would make the Muslims no better than the pagans.


No, you are reading too much into it; Muslims (with Muhammad) forgave those polytheists when they could kill them all. It was polytheosts who were killing Muslims before Muhammad forgave them. 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2011 - 12:16PM #138
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,926

"The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom not only for Muslims but for all of mankind."


- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869-1948)


***


In the heyday of the Abbasid Caliphate and the Fatimid Caliphate of Egypt, the People of the Book (ahl al-kitáb), namely Christians, Jews and Sabeans, had it very comfy indeed, given the historical context. Under the Umayyads too the Christians enjoyed high positions in the imperial court and bureaucracy. The first head of the academia, namely the House of Wisdom (bayt al-hikmát) in Baghdad, was a Christian scholar. Moses Maimonides, the greatest Jewish philosopher of all time, was a scholar in the Islamic Egypt. The jizya (poll-tax) payed by the dhimmi Christians and Jews was in fact quite reasonable, freeing them from armed service and entitling them protection by the Muslim armies. Being a Muslim who is a direct descendant of the prophet or their supporter, was far more dangerous than being a Christian or a Jew. The Nestorian Christians, the Orthodox Christians as well as the Andalusian Jews, for centuries, far preferred to live under Muslim rulers than under the cruelty of their Catholic sires. These are quite simply facts confirmed by virtually all of the most prominent Western historians specialized in Islamic history. One has to really cite rather marginalized (by their peers) scholars with a well-known bias or prolific populist authors with an anti-Islamic agenda to put such a dark spin on "dhimmitude" (a term coined by these very authors) as it has taken on in Islamophobic literature.


The Abbasids and the Fatimids took their Qur'án seriously in terms of religious tolerance. Naturally the same cannot be said about all Muslim states throughout the history. But even in the case of other Muslims states in history, is their track record any worse than that of Hindu, Pagan or Christian states in the annals of history? If yes, I would be obliged for evidence to make a scientifically credible comparison. Otherwise the adamant critic only betrays his personal bias in the fair facade of "reason" and "thinking days".


It was ironically none other than Islam which wafted irresistibly the breezes of enlightenment and civilization into Europe in countless of ways, chronicled by Western and non-Western historians alike in great consensus. The fresh breaths from the Islamic East aroused great interest among the European intelligentsia and aristocracy. These civilizing influences took their time to brew and to mature in the Christian West and culminated in the European Renaissance, Reformation and the subsequent Enlightenment. The irresistible onslaught of Islamic intellectual influence (through Umayyad Andalusia, through Mediterranean trade and through travelling explorers and chroniclers) naturally also provoked a counter-reaction, namely the Crusades. The Church of Rome faced a new challenge of unimaginable dimensions. Militarily, the Seljuks asserted their power right at their doorstep while, intellectually, the "Mohammedan" innovations were attracting widespread curiosity among the European scholars and learned men.


At the outset of the Abbasid Dynasty, the caliphate's vast wealth funded lavish building projects and patronage of the arts and sciences. Baghdad, since becoming the imperial capital in 763, had within forty years become probably the world's largest city and its greatest cultural centre. The assimilation of Persian literary forms and models of state-management, Greek science and philosophy and Islamic teachings initiated a period (the indirect influence of which lasted many centuries) of great intellectual achievements. Even the works of Indian philosophers and mathematicians were studied with vigour and openness. The Abbasid Empire was a true cosmopolitan civilization. A world civilization.


Medieval Europe owes most of its knowledge in astronomy, geography, medicine, mathematics and even Greek philosophy to Islamic scholars. Moreover, city-planning, architecture, seafaring, state-management, jurisprudence and trade enterprises flourished on an unparalleled scale. The Renaissance leap in mathematics and natural sciences (and in philosophy which, during the neo-classical period, drew greatly on mathematics and natural sciences) in Europe did not arise out of a mystic intellectual vacuum left by the Church. Algebra as we currently know it, modern calculus, relational logic, modal logic, astronomy and medicine, to mention but a few of the specific areas of interest among the Islamic scholars, had their catalyst in the Islamic World some seven hundred years before the European Renaissance.


It is a matter of historical record that the likes of Thomas Aquinas and William Ockham in the Middle Ages, and Da Vinci, Copernicus, Galilei, Bacon, Newton, Leibniz, Spinoza and Descartes during the Renaissance, drew either directly or indirectly on the intellectual legacy left by Islamic scholars much earlier and carried this heritage a great deal further. Their Islamic predecessors (many of which were Persians and Turks, and not only Arabs) included brilliant minds like Ibn Sina (Avicenna), Ibn Rushd (Averroes), al-Farabi, al-Ghazali, al-Kindi, al-Biruni, al-Nafis and Miskawayh.


Islamic civilization, in its heyday, and the Qur'án, upon which it was based, was demonstrably an agent of positive reform, high individual morality, progressive thoughts and intellectual innovations without which modern Western civilization would not exist. Rather than filling every Bnet thread to hurl veiled or overt accusations and sarcastic snides at Islam, the resident Islamophobes (both extreme and moderate) should be grateful for it. For atheists it is obviously an impossible feat to admit that the Qur'án was a powerful force for good in the world. Even if all demonstrable evidence unmistakably points to it.


"Righteousness is not that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to . . . spend on your substance out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient in pain and adversity and all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing." (Qur'án, 002.177)


With kind regards,


LilWabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2011 - 7:47PM #139
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Nov 25, 2011 -- 12:16PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


"The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom not only for Muslims but for all of mankind."


- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869-1948)



This following video might help IDBC to know about the bloodshed in Mecca (Makkah) in response to polytheists' bloodshed of Muslims:


www.bing.com/videos/search?q=conquest+of...#


The black guy (Bilal), who climbs up the Kaaba after the bloodshed, was a slave of polytheists bought and immediately freed by Abu Bakr.


"Righteousness is not that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to . . . spend on your substance out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient in pain and adversity and all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing." (Qur'án, 002.177)


Salaam and good morning to my friend LilWabbit


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 27, 2011 - 1:42PM #140
Idbc
Posts: 4,597

Nov 24, 2011 -- 3:01AM, Ibn wrote:


Nov 23, 2011 -- 10:42PM, Miraj wrote:


There was at least one Christian in Mecca.  Waraqa bin Nawfal, Khadija's cousin, was the Meccan Christian scholar who interpreted Muhammad's first revelation for him.



According to IDBC, Christians in Mecca had an idol that Muhammad did not destroy. He is also merely assuming that Waraqa and Khadija had churches in Mecca.




No that is not what I am assuming. I don't know wether there were or were not churches in MECCA at that time.   What I am assuming is that because there was a christian "idol" in the kaaba that there was some tolerance in Arabia and in Mecca. 


If I recall the story correctly after Muhammad had his first revelation he was concerned that it was a jinn and not an angel.  He went to his wife and told his wife what happened.  His wife then when to a christian relative who told them that it was an angel.  


I do not think it is unreasonable to assume that there were some christians who lived in both Mecca and Medina.   Mecca at that time was not only a religious center but also a trade center.  That would also lead me to believe that there were some christians living in Mecca. 


So far as I know there is no reliable statistics about the religious demographics of the people who lived in Mecca.   It does appear to me that the majority of the people living in Mecca at the time of Muhammad were pagans. 


Since  there were other pagan idols in the kaaba along with the christian idol it would be safe to say that whatever christians going to the kaaba were not...mainstream orthodox christians because mainstream-orthodox would not worhsip at a place that had other idols in them.


The description of the christian idol sounds like a Greek Orthodox Icon. A painting of Jesus as a baby and his mother Mary.  Which would make sense since Byzantine was closest to Mecca and such icons-idols were common.  


As to Mecca and there being some christians living there I think there were some living in Mecca.


I would doubt that they were mainstream orthodox christians because mainstream orthodox christians would not have pagan idols alongside their idols.  


I would also doubt that there were churches in Mecca because if there were then the idol would be in the church and not in the kaaba.  


But there is evidence that there were both christians and churches in ARABIA before and during the lifetime of Muhammad.  


Again the conflict in Mecca was over the kaaba.  It involved Muhammad and the pagans.  So far as I know that in Mecca.  There is no mention of either christians nor jews being involved in Mecca.   


After Muhammad and some of his followers fled to Yithrib the Jews got involved.   Wether there were pagans and christians living in Yithrib or what percentage of each I haven't a clue.  But it does sound like the majority of people living in Yithrib were Arab-Jews.  If that is the case then it would be reasonable to assume that there was at least one synogouge in Yithrib.  


Wether or not there were also christians and pagans living in Yithrib I haven't a clue because they are not mentioned.  


What I do know is that after Muhaamd acheived victory in Mecca there were no more pagans in Mecca or in Medina.  


What I also know is that according to both Muslims and Islamophiles is that both the pagan Meccans and the Jews were exiled because they deserved it.   That any conflict or deaths of the pagans or the Jews by Muhammad and Muslims were because they deserved it.  


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

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