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Switch to Forum Live View The Book of Job: How Loving Was Jehovah?
3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 11:19PM #41
Upperlimits
Posts: 3,077

Sep 29, 2011 -- 8:50PM, older wrote:


Job was not accusssing Jehovah, but wantttinng an explanatiooon, and Jehovaah inforrrmed hiim of  his   soverry andd indicated that dueee to his mightiness  should Job even question. That is not bragging not acting  wrrong. Jehovah had a reson to alloww  the suffering, andd the other angels were awaare, and it proved Satan as wrong. So Satans accusation proved loyalty to Jehovah was        possible.





If Job did nothing wrong, then why did Job repent in dust and ashes for his action of questioning God?

According to 2nd Corinthians 3:2, there are five gospels in the world. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Epistle of ones own life.  Most people will probably never read the first four.

God desires that our lives would bear spiritual fruit - not religious nuts.
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 11:48PM #42
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 971

Sep 29, 2011 -- 7:38PM, Ed2 wrote:


Sep 28, 2011 -- 3:27PM, older wrote:


Do y ou Ed, suppose that  Jesus  would say to his Father , you  are not loving me very much to   let me suffer the way I did?  Well Jesus wanted  Jehovahs purpose to be fulfilled. So the suffering Jesus endured also  will bring greater happiness to him as King of a paradise earth. Jesus would not  critisize his Father or say that he was not loving. So who is not following  Jesus '  footsteps?




Yes, but we are talking about two entirely different situations here, older.


Pre-human Jesus, the Logos, was not in the dark as to the suffering that he was to go through. He knew exactly what he was getting into.


However, Job was totally in the dark as to the reasons why he was suffering so tragically and so horrendously. Plus, Job was verbally chastised by YHWH because he guessed the wrong reasons as to why he was suffering....and because he asked YHWH why he was suffering. 




Ed2 I don't think you will ever find consistancy with Jehovah's standards, because as HE put  it HIS THOUGHTS ARE HIGHER THAN OUR THOUGHTS' so honestly when it comes to  the wherefores and whys regarding God's actions, reactions, we  won't ever really  'GET IT'.  


Thats why any group today on one hand deny being inspired by God but on the other say they are 'Spirit directed' by God which means the same thing in the context of being a 'channell' between God and humans , or that the gb' under the operation of God's spirit understand deeper truths (WTS) is extremly dangerous to both mental and spiritual health.


 

In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 11:50PM #43
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 971

Sep 29, 2011 -- 11:19PM, Upperlimits wrote:


Sep 29, 2011 -- 8:50PM, older wrote:


Job was not accusssing Jehovah, but wantttinng an explanatiooon, and Jehovaah inforrrmed hiim of  his   soverry andd indicated that dueee to his mightiness  should Job even question. That is not bragging not acting  wrrong. Jehovah had a reson to alloww  the suffering, andd the other angels were awaare, and it proved Satan as wrong. So Satans accusation proved loyalty to Jehovah was        possible.





If Job did nothing wrong, then why did Job repent in dust and ashes for his action of questioning God?




Fear of getting whammied again for no good reason?

In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2011 - 12:53AM #44
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Sep 29, 2011 -- 11:48PM, Presentsiimpletense wrote:


Ed2 I don't think you will ever find consistancy with Jehovah's standards, because as HE put  it HIS THOUGHTS ARE HIGHER THAN OUR THOUGHTS' so honestly when it comes to  the wherefores and whys regarding God's actions, reactions, we  won't ever really  'GET IT'.  




Yes, but Hebrews 13:8 say that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." Also, since Jesus is either God himself(as some belive) or an exact representation of God(Hebrews 1:3), Jehovah is suppose to be consistent.


 


Sep 29, 2011 -- 11:48PM, Presentsiimpletense wrote:


Thats why any group today on one hand deny being inspired by God but on the other say they are 'Spirit directed' by God which means the same thing in the context of being a 'channell' between God and humans , or that the gb' under the operation of God's spirit understand deeper truths (WTS) is extremly dangerous to both mental and spiritual health.




I can't argue with you about that.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2011 - 1:02AM #45
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Sep 29, 2011 -- 11:50PM, Presentsiimpletense wrote:


Sep 29, 2011 -- 11:19PM, Upperlimits wrote:


Sep 29, 2011 -- 8:50PM, older wrote:


Job was not accusssing Jehovah, but wantttinng an explanatiooon, and Jehovaah inforrrmed hiim of  his   soverry andd indicated that dueee to his mightiness  should Job even question. That is not bragging not acting  wrrong. Jehovah had a reson to alloww  the suffering, andd the other angels were awaare, and it proved Satan as wrong. So Satans accusation proved loyalty to Jehovah was        possible.





If Job did nothing wrong, then why did Job repent in dust and ashes for his action of questioning God?




Fear of getting whammied again for no good reason?




Yeah, and after losing all of his property and children and after acquiring a particularly foul and nasty physical disease that essentally floors him, YHWH gives Job a really good tongue lashing and really sets him straight for assuming that God is punishing him because of a sin that he(Job) committed.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2011 - 4:57PM #46
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Sep 21, 2011 -- 11:40PM, Ed2 wrote:


I know that post #170 in this thread:


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


was a really good exit line from the forum, :-) however, there has been something in the book of Job that I have been wondering about. In Job 1:10 it says: 10 Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. However, at the very end of the book of Job in Job 42:10-17 it says:


10 And Jehovah himself turned back the captive condition of Job when he prayed in behalf of his companions, and Jehovah began to give in addition all that had been Job’s, in double amount. 11 And there kept coming to him all his brothers and all his sisters and all those formerly knowing him, and they began to eat bread with him in his house and to sympathize with him and to comfort him over all the calamity that Jehovah had let come upon him; and they proceeded each one to give him a piece of money and each one a gold ring.

12 As for Jehovah, he blessed the end of Job afterward more than his beginning, so that he came to have fourteen thousand sheep and six thousand camels and a thousand spans of cattle and a thousand she-asses. 13 He also came to have seven sons and three daughters. 14 And he went calling the name of the first Je·mi´mah and the name of the second Ke·zi´ah and the name of the third Ker´en-hap´puch. 15 And no women were found as pretty as Job’s daughters in all the land, and their father proceeded to give them an inheritance in among their brothers.

16 And Job continued living after this a hundred and forty years and came to see his sons and his grandsons—four generations. 17 And gradually Job died, old and satisfied with days.



Okay, the thing that I had been wondering about was: Since chapter one says that God had put up a hedge about Job and his house and everything that he has all around him...and since after Job's trials, Jehovah blessed the end of Job afterward more than his beginning...what I was wondering about was: Why are God's Hebrew servants in the Bible throughout the centuries, plus, God's Christians servants in the New Testament...continously tempted and tested and persecuted by Satan througout their entire lives? Or in other words, why was Job intensely tested and persecuted by Satan only for a short season...and then when that season was over with, Job went back to living his luxurious and God-protected life. No longer attacked, tested, or persecuted by Satan for the rest of his days. Or at least that's how I read the last few paragraphs of the book of Job.


But if JWs or anyone else could explain this to me, it would be appreciated.




I'm bumping this up to see if GTBHS has an answer to the question that I posed. 

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2011 - 6:05PM #47
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Is the question, why did Job go back to a 'perfect life?'


 


Ed, there is no 'perfect life.'  (Not yet.)  Job went back to his life of being a respected person, who sometimes had the problems of others brought to him, his life of maintaining his 'covenant with his eyes' to not be lustful, his life of all the vagaries of human experience.   Where do you get that he never had another problem?


(Now let's just hope I understood the question, we've seen, I don't always.Wink )

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2011 - 10:20AM #48
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Dec 27, 2011 -- 6:05PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Is the question, why did Job go back to a 'perfect life?'


 


Ed, there is no 'perfect life.'  (Not yet.)  Job went back to his life of being a respected person, who sometimes had the problems of others brought to him, his life of maintaining his 'covenant with his eyes' to not be lustful, his life of all the vagaries of human experience.   Where do you get that he never had another problem?


(Now let's just hope I understood the question, we've seen, I don't always. )




Yes, you pretty much understood the question.(Except for the 'never had another problem' part.) However, when I read Job 1:9-11, I get the impression that God had not only been blessing Job, but he had also been protectiing him from Satan. Therefore, at the end of the book of Job, it sounds like everything went back to the way that it had been previously.


Additionally, I have not read about any other servant of God where it was said that God had "put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around." Therefore, why only Job?

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2011 - 5:35PM #49
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583
(Psalm 34:7)  7 The angel of Jehovah is camping all around those fearing him, And he rescues them.

We believe Jehovah puts up a 'hedge' to a degree around all of his servants.  Think about it, a hedge is just a measure of protection. Job just happened to be the only person at that particular time serving Jehovah in the way that he was. 

At an earlier time, Jehovah proved to be a 'hedge' for Abraham, he was a nomad, but a pretty wealthy one! and the story of Jacob, he became quite wealthy due to Jehovah's blessing.  He arrived at Laban's with not all that much, and left with wives, children, and vast flocks. 
(Genesis 31:1) 31 In time he got to hear the words of the sons of La′ban, saying: “Jacob has taken everything that belonged to our father; and from what belonged to our father he has amassed all this wealth.”

It's a fascinating story, with Jacob praying to Jehovah for assistance since Laban kept 'changing his wage.'  And boy, did Jehovah ever assist!
“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 5:10PM #50
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Dec 30, 2011 -- 5:35PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

 (Psalm 34:7)  7 The angel of Jehovah is camping all around those fearing him, And he rescues them.

We believe Jehovah puts up a 'hedge' to a degree around all of his servants.  Think about it, a hedge is just a measure of protection. 



Interestingly, I had recently spoke to a non-JW Christian who has been struggling with a situtation for a very long time....and that NJWC also had said something like, 'And even if God doesn't bless you with anything for the rest of your life, I feel that one should still glorify and praise God .' However, 1 Timothy 4:8, which says: "For bodily training is beneficial for a little; but godly devotion is beneficial for all things, as it holds promise of the life now and that which is to come" came to mind. However, for reasons that I would prefer not to get into, I decided not to mention this scripture to that person.


And I know that JWs feel that NJWCs technically, don't really fear or serve God, however, there are situations where some people who feel as if they are serving God....are just not experiencing the blessings that God has promised them.


Also, even when I was a devoted, God fearing JW, I never actually felt that all of the scriptures cited above applied to myself. Psalm 34:7 and 1 Timothy 4:8...and other scriptures like it.


And BTW, if anyone is going to response with the defualt Christian and JW answer of: Well, apparently you really didn't love God enough, or you really didn't fear God properly, or you weren't really humble enough, etc., etc., I would really rather not see your response.


Plus, I'm guessing that there are/have been a lot of other former JWs who have experienced the same thing.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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