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Switch to Forum Live View The Book of Job: How Loving Was Jehovah?
3 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 5:17PM #61
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 8, 2012 -- 7:50AM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - Goodtobehome is accurately portraying what Jehovah's Witnesses believe - why do you think otherwise??? Of course, human words are fallible - Scripture is infallible.   I believe this Scripture sets the matter (the latter point) straight:


(Romans 2:14-16) . . .For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.




First of all, thank you for replying for, um, GTBHS.(Perhaps you were trying to help her save face?)


Second of all, your response did not answer my question that was directed to GTBHS concerning heresy. Your response only provided a Biblical definition of what the human "conscience" is.


Third of all, it seems as if you will never understand the concepts of being verbose and being succinct because your post #60 basically repeated things that you already had said in your post #59.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2012 - 5:46PM #62
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Jan 8, 2012 -- 5:17PM, Ed2 wrote:


Jan 8, 2012 -- 7:50AM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - Goodtobehome is accurately portraying what Jehovah's Witnesses believe - why do you think otherwise??? Of course, human words are fallible - Scripture is infallible.   I believe this Scripture sets the matter (the latter point) straight:


(Romans 2:14-16) . . .For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.




First of all, thank you for replying for, um, GTBHS.(Perhaps you were trying to help her save face?)


Second of all, your response did not answer my question that was directed to GTBHS concerning heresy. Your response only provided a Biblical definition of what the human "conscience" is.


Third of all, it seems as if you will never understand the concepts of being verbose and being succinct because your post #60 basically repeated things that you already had said in your post #59.





No, Newtonian was just illustrating how nicely my brothers 'get me.'  And I didn't post anything heretical...that your 'accusation of the week?'Wink  My brothers have never stated that humans outside our religious association cannot be spiritual.  Gracious, you do recall that Job was certainly not an Israelite, yes?  He lived while the fleshly 'seed of Abraham' was in captivity to Egypt.  We believe Moses first became familiar with his story while he himself was in exile in Midian, and that he caught up with the last details of the outcome not long before his own (Moses's) death.  


Let's be really clear on this.  Israelites were the 'seed of Abraham' and were all descended from Jacob.  All of Jacob's family ended up in Egypt.  Job was in Uz and was descended from Shem, so a 'distant cousin' of Abraham, but not descended from him.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2012 - 10:35PM #63
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 9, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


No, Newtonian was just illustrating how nicely my brothers 'get me.'  And I didn't post anything heretical...that your 'accusation of the week?'



Hmmm. I was just thinking that with your world view, with you asking me something like that probably means that you are implying that I and the other cirtics of JWs are being like the Devil(Revelation 12:10) and that you and the other JWs are more like Christ. 


Jan 9, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


My brothers have never stated that humans outside our religious association cannot be spiritual.  Gracious, you do recall that Job was certainly not an Israelite, yes?  He lived while the fleshly 'seed of Abraham' was in captivity to Egypt.  We believe Moses first became familiar with his story while he himself was in exile in Midian, and that he caught up with the last details of the outcome not long before his own (Moses's) death.



What a sham of an answer, GTBHS. Regardless of whether or not Job was an Israelite, he still was a worshiper of Jehovah and had communication with Jehovah...which made him the same religion as others who worshipped Jehovah. 


Plus, you may view that as me accusing you of giving a dishonest answer....however, I view it as exposing the truth about your answer.


Jan 9, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Let's be really clear on this.  Israelites were the 'seed of Abraham' and were all descended from Jacob.  All of Jacob's family ended up in Egypt.  Job was in Uz and was descended from Shem, so a 'distant cousin' of Abraham, but not descended from him.



And what exactly is that suppose to clear up?

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 6:38AM #64
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Jan 9, 2012 -- 10:35PM, Ed2 wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


No, Newtonian was just illustrating how nicely my brothers 'get me.'  And I didn't post anything heretical...that your 'accusation of the week?'



Hmmm. I was just thinking that with your world view, with you asking me something like that probably means that you are implying that I and the other cirtics of JWs are being like the Devil(Revelation 12:10) and that you and the other JWs are more like Christ. 


Jan 9, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


My brothers have never stated that humans outside our religious association cannot be spiritual.  Gracious, you do recall that Job was certainly not an Israelite, yes?  He lived while the fleshly 'seed of Abraham' was in captivity to Egypt.  We believe Moses first became familiar with his story while he himself was in exile in Midian, and that he caught up with the last details of the outcome not long before his own (Moses's) death.



What a sham of an answer, GTBHS. Regardless of whether or not Job was an Israelite, he still was a worshiper of Jehovah and had communication with Jehovah...which made him the same religion as others who worshipped Jehovah. 


Plus, you may view that as me accusing you of giving a dishonest answer....however, I view it as exposing the truth about your answer.


Jan 9, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Let's be really clear on this.  Israelites were the 'seed of Abraham' and were all descended from Jacob.  All of Jacob's family ended up in Egypt.  Job was in Uz and was descended from Shem, so a 'distant cousin' of Abraham, but not descended from him.



And what exactly is that suppose to clear up?






I wasn't 'implying' anything, Ed, but if you can't interact with me without accusing me of either lying, or heresy, or something it does make things difficult.  I don't compare people I converse with to the Devil, of all things.


And I stand by my answer.  Job wasn't part of God's 'chosen nation.'   Take from that what you desire.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 11:05AM #65
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:38AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


And I stand by my answer.  Job wasn't part of God's 'chosen nation.'   Take from that what you desire.




Well, from what I've seen in the literature, Job didn't need to be part of God's 'chosen nation' at the time, since the nation didn't have it's laws handed down from Jehovah, yet.  So, besides the basic Noahide laws, Job didn't have much laws to observe and he could serve Jehovah without being in his 'covenant' with Jacob/Israel.


In other words, Job was the 'exception'.




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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 4:25PM #66
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

I would encourage, however, Ed, for you to give deeper thought to the scripture Newtonian shared.   Yes, it sheds light on what the conscience is.  It also shows that one can have a conscience that points toward the doing of God's will without a formal law.  


This is God's universe, the one he created, and there is no will that will have any lasting effects other than His.  We all must align with that will, if we expect to continue within it.  Can some persons align themselves with God's will without being a 'formal worshipper?'  That is ONLY for God to say.   

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 6:52PM #67
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:38AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


I wasn't 'implying' anything, Ed, but if you can't interact with me without accusing me of either lying, or heresy, or something it does make things difficult.  I don't compare people I converse with to the Devil, of all things.



Thanks for letting me know that because I know in another thread, you were making a point to Svetlana that she was fulfilling scripture in regards to mocking people who are saying that the end of the world is here and that you were fulfilling the scripture of being amongst the ones who are warning about it. Therefore, that is how I got the impression that you saying that I was accusing you, was similar to the beings in the Bible who accuse God's servants.


But as far as me accusing you of either lying, or heresy, etc., it has never been my intention to personally hurt anyone on this board. It's just that I am able to see when answers are subtley shifted or slightly changed from the original answer or argument, to suit the current argument.(And I will give an example in a minute.) And when I see that, I will 'call' someone on it. However, I will try to come across a little more milder.


Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:38AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:

 


And I stand by my answer.  Job wasn't part of God's 'chosen nation.'   Take from that what you desire.




Okay, I will now give the example that I had mentioned.


In post #54, I had started this part of the discussion by saying to you: and I was wondering what is the religion of these 'extremely spiritual people who are a complete and utter blessing to the world, who aren't JWs' and who you think are connected to the Divine. (And notice that I had said "what is the religion of these....people.)


And in post #55, you said: Various.


And then in post #56, I said: But anyway, so are you saying that some people can be connected to the Divine...and they don't even have to be Christian?


But then in post #57 you said:


Fortunately for the Earth and all humanity, there are people on this earth, even people who have never heard of Christianity, who are connected to the Divine.  In fact, with the path that 'Christianity' took over the past two millenia, you might even have found more on the 'outside' than the 'inside.'  And some of those 'connected' might even have rejected 'Christianity' due to its rotten fruitage.



God knows who manifests more of his own 'spirit' than the spirit of the ' ruler of the authority  of the air' of this world.  Eph 2:2


But skipping to post #62...and no offense...and for lack of a better phrase....this is where what I call 'sleight of hand' came in.(And it was probably done unconsciously by you.) But in your post you said: My brothers have never stated that humans outside our religious association cannot be spiritual. And then you went on to mention about how Job wasn't an Israelite.


Now, GTBHS, I had never asked you anything about 'humans outside [JWs'] religious association.' I had only asked you about the 'religion' of these people and them being 'Christian.' Also, in the context, it had already been established that we were not talking about people who were JWs, therefore, my inquring about these people being Christian should not have been construed as them being JWs.


Therefore, you seemed to have 'shifted' what I had intitally inquired about concering 'what religion were these people' by mentioning Job and humans outside of JWs' religious association...in order to support your argument. And I called you on it. Also, the reason why I came on so strong is because according to JWs, Job, Abel and everyone else who served Jehovah in ancient times...are considered to have been Jehovah's Witnesses.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 7:07PM #68
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Ed, I am a speed reader, and a fast typist and when I type or write, a great deal of it is 'stream of consciousness.'  I have no devious purposes.  I present myself as I am, and really don't edit so as to 'appear' any particular way.  I tease and joke a little because this is not 'heavy stuff,' I actually do enjoy it.  I will engage with you and present what I feel, but it is up to you whether you are going to see 'sleight of hand' or 'subtle shifts' when to me, we are having a conversation.  I don't know what area of the country you live in, but where I live, especially for 'us girls,' conversations whirl and swirl and take little turns, etc.


You do realize that you just described 'shifts' that took place over a course of several posts, right?  Like 55 to 64?

If I shift arguments within one post, or two at most, you can call it sleight of hand. Otherwise, it is just normal eddies in the flow of conversation. 


Do you want to continue the conversation, or are you going to comb over everything I post for 'subtle shifts' or 'sleight of hand?'  Because if so, no I am not hurt, just done.Wink


 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 8:04PM #69
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:07PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Ed, I am a speed reader, and a fast typist and when I type or write, a great deal of it is 'stream of consciousness.'  I have no devious purposes.  I present myself as I am, and really don't edit so as to 'appear' any particular way.  I tease and joke a little because this is not 'heavy stuff,' I actually do enjoy it.  I will engage with you and present what I feel, but it is up to you whether you are going to see 'sleight of hand' or 'subtle shifts' when to me, we are having a conversation.  I don't know what area of the country you live in, but where I live, especially for 'us girls,' conversations whirl and swirl and take little turns, etc.


You do realize that you just described 'shifts' that took place over a course of several posts, right?  Like 55 to 64?

If I shift arguments within one post, or two at most, you can call it sleight of hand. Otherwise, it is just normal eddies in the flow of conversation. 


Do you want to continue the conversation, or are you going to comb over everything I post for 'subtle shifts' or 'sleight of hand?'  Because if so, no I am not hurt, just done.




I'm not sure what to say because you did something similar in another thread, and I called you on it in post #104.


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 9:10PM #70
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

What I see in that particular thread is that in post 104 you twisted my meaning.  You are doing your best to put me on the defensive, and I am not having it.  So I left the discussion for the time being.


 


Guess the answer to 'do we continue the conversation' is 'no for now?' 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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