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Switch to Forum Live View The Book of Job: How Loving Was Jehovah?
2 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 5:26PM #51
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Ed, I wouldn't try to quantify your love or devotion or service.  But just what if...the blessings God had in mind for you were different than the ones you had in mind for yourself?  


If you had a fixed idea of what a blessed life would look like, and God had a completely different idea, he isn't going to change his idea, because his are always best.  Again, it's just a thought to consider, but it is such a human tendency to think we know what we want, and when it doesn't appear we don't realize, God may have a completely different but way better plan.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 6:27PM #52
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 1, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Ed, I wouldn't try to quantify your love or devotion or service.  But just what if...the blessings God had in mind for you were different than the ones you had in mind for yourself?



GTBHS, first of all, that is sheeeeeeeeeer speculation on your part.


Jan 1, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


If you had a fixed idea of what a blessed life would look like, and God had a completely different idea, he isn't going to change his idea, because his are always best.  Again, it's just a thought to consider, but it is such a human tendency to think we know what we want, and when it doesn't appear we don't realize, God may have a completely different but way better plan.




Once again, that is sheer speculation and conjecture on your part, GTBHS. Also, because I am more of a private person who doesn't like to divulge a lot of personal information on internet message boards, that prevents me from going into any more detail about this.


Additionally, I have come to a point in my life where I have lost interest in playing 'God guessing games'.... Where one seems to be always be trying to speak for and reason on things that a quiet and reticent deity will not communicate on Himself.


And GTBHS....if you really realized what you had just said/suggested....you really wouldn't have said/suggested it.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 7:01PM #53
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

I do agree it is speculation.  That's the reason for all the 'ifs'...


 


I am speaking from personal experience, though.  When my husband ended up hospitalized with a psychiatric disorder and life spiraled completely out of control, began several years of my own questioning of 'why, when I had been doing everything 'right' up to that point, were things so incredibly bad?'  I've mentioned before I ended up on the 'outside' for several years.  I did have a 'fixed' idea of what my life should be, and God wasn't holding up his end of the deal, from my view.


But again, without details on your situation, I can only speculate.  


 


I do want to say this.  I don't believe no one on the outside 'fears or serves God.'   And I don't think we teach that.  We teach that, according to the Bible, it is vital to flee to God's Kingdom.  But for me to say, no one outside 'fears or serves God' in my opinion, would limit, not just my earthly human kin, but limit God himself, and I have said before, I don't set limits on God.  (Like a year or two ago.)  Who he works through is his business.   I know from the Biblical standpoint, he is working through the Christian congregation worldwide.  But even from my own personal experience, I've met and also am just aware of,  extremely spiritual people who are a complete and utter blessing to the world, who aren't JWs.  And I can't see how someone could be a complete and utter blessing to the world, without being connected to the Divine.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2012 - 1:33AM #54
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 1, 2012 -- 7:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


I do want to say this.  I don't believe no one on the outside 'fears or serves God.'   And I don't think we teach that.  We teach that, according to the Bible, it is vital to flee to God's Kingdom.  But for me to say, no one outside 'fears or serves God' in my opinion, would limit, not just my earthly human kin, but limit God himself, and I have said before, I don't set limits on God.  (Like a year or two ago.)  Who he works through is his business.   I know from the Biblical standpoint, he is working through the Christian congregation worldwide.  But even from my own personal experience, I've met and also am just aware of,  extremely spiritual people who are a complete and utter blessing to the world, who aren't JWs.  And I can't see how someone could be a complete and utter blessing to the world, without being connected to the Divine.




GTBHS, I was thinking about what you said in post #156 in this thread:


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


Jan 3, 2012 -- 6:35AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


When you are connected to a 'source' of water, or electricity, the 'amount' you receive depends entirely on you. Turn on more water taps, or turn on more electrical devices.

All humans are connected to the 'source' of holy spirit. You'd be dead, if you were not. Paul said 'by him we have life, and move, and exist.' We are all connected to God. The strength of your connection, is up to you. Your ability to receive holy spirit, is up to you. It's there for the asking, and it flows to you by your connection to God, which you can keep open by prayer, taking in accurate knowledge, meditation, staying oriented to God's will in your life. It is 'power' after all. But you control the 'taps' or you control how much you 'plug in.'

(Philippians 4:13) 13 For all things I have the strength by virtue of him who imparts power to me.

(Isaiah 40:28-29) . . .. 29 He is giving to the tired one power; and to the one without dynamic energy he makes full might abound.

(1 Kings 18:46) 46 And the very hand of Jehovah proved to be upon E‧li′jah, so that he girded up his hips and went running ahead of A′hab all the way to Jez′re‧el. (That was a long run.)


Do we consider the Governing Body to be very much 'connected' to God? Certainly. But anyone, anywhere, doing what is required to receive holy spirit, can receive holy spirit, in the 'amounts' needed to accomplish what they need to accomplish, and to understand what they need to understand. Holy spirit guides them to do the task they do, as the holy spirit 'guides' his people into all truth. (Guiding being not a sudden 'dropping of truth on the head' but a process.)

(John 16:12-14) 12 “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU.




and I was wondering what is the religion of these 'extremely spiritual people who are a complete and utter blessing to the world, who aren't JWs' and who you think are connected to the Divine.




I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2012 - 6:30AM #55
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

what is the religion of these 'extremely spiritual people who are a complete and utter blessing to the world, who aren't JWs' and who you think are connected to the Divine.---Ed


 


Various.


 


And I am not going to name names.  My perception of 'who' is 'spiritual' is after all, my own.  And as I explained in the comment you paste, we are all connected, just some persons keep that connection 'clearer' than others, so that they can be part of a 'flow' of love and blessings to others.


 


 


“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 12:11AM #56
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 5, 2012 -- 6:30AM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


what is the religion of these 'extremely spiritual people who are a complete and utter blessing to the world, who aren't JWs' and who you think are connected to the Divine.---Ed


 


Various.


 


And I am not going to name names.  My perception of 'who' is 'spiritual' is after all, my own.  And as I explained in the comment you paste, we are all connected, just some persons keep that connection 'clearer' than others, so that they can be part of a 'flow' of love and blessings to others.




Names? Who asked for names?(*whispering* Where does she get these wild ideas from?)


But anyway, so are you saying that some people can be connected to the Divine...and they don't even have to be Christian?

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 7:14PM #57
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Fortunately for the Earth and all humanity, there are people on this earth, even people who have never heard of Christianity, who are connected to the Divine.  In fact, with the path that 'Christianity' took over the past two millenia, you might even have found more on the 'outside' than the 'inside.'  And some of those 'connected' might even have rejected 'Christianity' due to its rotten fruitage.


God knows who manifests more of his own 'spirit' than the spirit of the ' ruler of the authority  of the air' of this world.  Eph 2:2



 

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 3:26AM #58
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Jan 6, 2012 -- 7:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Fortunately for the Earth and all humanity, there are people on this earth, even people who have never heard of Christianity, who are connected to the Divine.  In fact, with the path that 'Christianity' took over the past two millenia, you might even have found more on the 'outside' than the 'inside.'  And some of those 'connected' might even have rejected 'Christianity' due to its rotten fruitage.


God knows who manifests more of his own 'spirit' than the spirit of the ' ruler of the authority  of the air' of this world.  Eph 2:2




But, GTBHS, aren't you speaking heresy, according to Watchtower Bible & Tract Society standards?

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 7:50AM #59
Newtonian
Posts: 11,275

Ed - Goodtobehome is accurately portraying what Jehovah's Witnesses believe - why do you think otherwise??? Of course, human words are fallible - Scripture is infallible.   I believe this Scripture sets the matter (the latter point) straight:


(Romans 2:14-16) . . .For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.


The question in OP shows you wish to know how Jehovah feels - and this involves Jehovah's personality which Jesus Christ perfectly reflects.   Our faithful slave has often encouraged us while we are doing our personal Bible reading and study to do so with the goal of getting to know Jehovah better - of course, that includes Jehovah's feelings. There are hundreds of Scriptures which show how Jehovah feels about those who have died - here is one of them concerning how Jehovah feels about children who have died at evil hands:


(Jeremiah 31:15-17) . . . “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘In Ra′mah a voice is being heard, lamentation and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping over her sons. She has refused to be comforted over her sons, because they are no more.’” 16 This is what Jehovah has said: “‘Hold back your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears, for there exists a reward for your activity,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and they will certainly return from the land of the enemy.’ 17 “‘And there exists a hope for your future,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and the sons will certainly return to their own territory.’”


Job also realized how Jehovah feels about those who have died - he has a yearning for those who are in the land of the last enemy (death - 1 Corinthians 15:26) which is why Jesus is the resurrection and the life (John 11:25 - read the whole chapter to gain insight as to how Jesus also feels - e.g. he gave way to tears) -


(Job 14:13-15) . . . O that in She′ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.


Looking into the meaning of the Hebrew word translated "yearning" helps us appreciate the depth of feelings Jehovah has for those who have died: From the Commentary by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown on Job 14:15 [KJV desire = NW yearning] -


 "have a desire to — literally, “become pale with anxious desire:” the same word is translated “sore longedst after” (Gen_31:30; Psa_84:2), implying the utter unlikelihood that God would leave in oblivion the “creature of His own hands so fearfully and wonderfully made.”"


 From Barnes:  "The word here rendered, “have a desire” (תכסף  tı̂kâsaph), means literally to be or become “pale” (from כסף  keseph), “silver,” so called from its paleness, like the Greek ἄργυρος  arguros from ἀγρός  agros, white); and then the verb means to pine or long after anything, so as to become pale."


Indeed, Jesus similarly groaned in the spirit after observing the mourning of Mary and Martha, whom he loved, over the death of Lazarus whom he also loved:


 (John 11:32-35) 32 And so Mary, when she arrived where Jesus was and caught sight of him, fell at his feet, saying to him: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping and the Jews that came with her weeping, groaned in the spirit and became troubled; 34 and he said: “Where have YOU laid him?” They said to him: “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus gave way to tears.


Remember, Ed, that it means eternal life to gain knowledge (get to know) Jehovah and Jesus Christ!  (John 17:3)   Indeed, to know Jehovah is to love Jehovah (cp. Matthew 22:37-40) -


(1 John 4:8) He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.  

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 8:47AM #60
Newtonian
Posts: 11,275

Ed - See this article on our website:


www.watchtower.org/e/we/article_05.htm


After discussing John 11, Job 14:15 is also discussed - here is an excerpt:


"'God Will Have a Yearning'    


The response of Jesus to Lazarus' death reveals a very tender side of the Son of God. His deep feelings on this occasion clearly indicate his intense desire to resurrect the dead. We read: "Mary, when she arrived where Jesus was and caught sight of him, fell at his feet, saying to him: 'Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.' Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping and the Jews that came with her weeping, groaned in the spirit and became troubled; and he said: 'Where have you laid him?' They said to him: 'Lord, come and see.' Jesus gave way to tears. Therefore the Jews began to say: 'See, what affection he used to have for him!'"—John 11:32-36.


Jesus' heartfelt compassion is here indicated by three expressions: "groaned," "became troubled," and "gave way to tears." The original-language words used in recording this touching scene indicate that Jesus was so deeply moved by the death of his dear friend Lazarus and the sight of Lazarus' sister weeping that His eyes brimmed over with tears.*


What is so remarkable is that Jesus had previously brought two others back to life. And he fully intended to do the same with Lazarus. (John 11:11, 23, 25) Yet, he "gave way to tears." Restoring humans to life, then, is not a mere procedure for Jesus. His tender and deep feelings as manifested on this occasion clearly indicate his intense desire to undo the ravages of death.


Since Jesus is 'the exact representation of Jehovah God's very being,' we rightly expect no less of our heavenly Father. (Hebrews 1:3) Of Jehovah's own willingness to perform the resurrection, the faithful man Job said: "If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning." (Job 14:14, 15) Here the original-language word that is rendered "you will have a yearning" denotes God's earnest longing and desire. (Genesis 31:30; Psalm 84:2) Clearly, Jehovah must keenly anticipate the resurrection."  


See the whole article for more - also the links.


 

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