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Switch to Forum Live View The Book of Job: How Loving Was Jehovah?
3 years ago  ::  Sep 11, 2011 - 11:27PM #1
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

I would like to quote some scriptures from the book of Job using Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures:

Job 1:1-22:(emphais mine)

1 There happened to be a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man proved to be blameless and upright, and fearing God and turning aside from bad. 2 And seven sons and three daughters came to be born to him. 3 And his livestock got to be seven thousand sheep and three thousand camels and five hundred spans of cattle and five hundred she-asses, along with a very large body of servants; and that man came to be the greatest of all the Orientals.

4 And his sons went and held a banquet at the house of each one on his own day; and they sent and invited their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 And it would occur that when the banquet days had gone round the circuit, Job would send and sanctify them; and he got up early in the morning and offered up burnt sacrifices according to the number of all of them; for, said Job, “maybe my sons have sinned and have cursed God in their heart.” That is the way Job would do always.

6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 8 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” 9 At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11 But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” 12 Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah.

13 Now it came to be the day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in the house of their brother the firstborn. 14 And there came a messenger to Job, and he proceeded to say: “The cattle themselves happened to be plowing and the she-asses were grazing at the side of them 15 when the Sa·be´ans came making a raid and taking them, and the attendants they struck down with the edge of the sword; and I got to escape, only I by myself, to tell you.”

16 While this one was yet speaking that one came and proceeded to say: “The very fire of God fell from the heavens and went blazing among the sheep and the attendants and eating them up; and I got to escape, only I by myself, to tell you.”

17 While that one was yet speaking another one came and proceeded to say: “The Chal·de´ans made up three bands and went dashing against the camels and taking them, and the attendants they struck down with the edge of the sword; and I got to escape, only I by myself, to tell you.”

18 While this other one was yet speaking, still another one came and proceeded to say: “Your sons and your daughters were eating and drinking wine in the house of their brother the firstborn. 19 And, look! there came a great wind from the region of the wilderness, and it went striking the four corners of the house, so that it fell upon the young people and they died. And I got to escape, only I by myself, to tell you.”

20 And Job proceeded to get up and rip his sleeveless coat apart and cut the hair off his head and fall to the earth and bow down 21 and say:

“Naked I came out of my mother’s belly,
And naked shall I return there.
Jehovah himself has given, and Jehovah himself has taken away.
Let the name of Jehovah continue to be blessed.”

22 In all this Job did not sin or ascribe anything improper to God.

www.watchtower.org/e/bible/job/chapter_0...




and Job 42:10-17:(emphasis mine)

10 And Jehovah himself turned back the captive condition of Job when he prayed in behalf of his companions, and Jehovah began to give in addition all that had been Job’s, in double amount. 11 And there kept coming to him all his brothers and all his sisters and all those formerly knowing him, and they began to eat bread with him in his house and to sympathize with him and to comfort him over all the calamity that Jehovah had let come upon him; and they proceeded each one to give him a piece of money and each one a gold ring.

12 As for Jehovah, he blessed the end of Job afterward more than his beginning, so that he came to have fourteen thousand sheep and six thousand camels and a thousand spans of cattle and a thousand she-asses. 13 He also came to have seven sons and three daughters. 14 And he went calling the name of the first Je·mi´mah and the name of the second Ke·zi´ah and the name of the third Ker´en-hap´puch. 15 And no women were found as pretty as Job’s daughters in all the land, and their father proceeded to give them an inheritance in among their brothers.

16 And Job continued living after this a hundred and forty years and came to see his sons and his grandsons—four generations. 17 And gradually Job died, old and satisfied with days.

www.watchtower.org/e/bible/job/chapter_0...




Now I know that Job was compensated with seven more sons and three more daughters for the ones that God allowed to die, but what I would like to ask JWs is: How loving was it for  Jehovah to allow Job's 10 children - his most precious possesions - to be mercilessly slaughtered because of a challenge that was presented to Him? Also, I'm curious as to whether or not God's heart was being broken when Job's children were killed, or if the whole challenge was just perfunctory on Jehovah's part. Plus, I was wondering if Jehovah's heart only gets broken when the offense is actually against Him.

Any comments would be appreciated.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2011 - 11:23AM #2
marken
Posts: 3,713

The  way  I  read  the  bible  is  that  Jehovah personally  loves  EVERY human  that  has  ever  lived  on  this  earth.   He  does  not  love  the  destructive  things  we  do,  but  because  we  were  made  in  his  image,  most  humans  do  good  things  as  well.   Adam  and  Eve  brought  death  and  sin  into  the  world,  and  so,  Jehovah  created  a  new  arrangement  whereby  some  of  these  humans  who  were  born  from  them  would  get  the  right  to  everlasting  life  restored  to  them.  john  3:16.  This  would  apply  after  Jesus  paid  the  ransom for  people  who  had  faith  in  it,  but  also  it  would  be  applied  to  those  who  had  been  born  before  this,  by  resurrection.   Job  reveals  he  knew  of  this  provision  at  chapter  14 verses 13-15.  This  hope  would  have  been  a  comfort  when  all  of  his  children  died.   Just  as  it  comforted  me  when  my  son  died.     Did  the  ten  children  Job  had  later  on  compensate  for  the  10  dead.   I  don`t  think  so.   No  human  can  ever  replace  another  one.   The  science  of  DNA  proves  that,  but  it  did  give  Job  the  wonderful  chance  to love  his  own  living  children  again.  I  love  the  other  children  I have,  and  if  I  had  had  more after  the  death  of  my son,  I  would  appreciate  them  even  more,  but  not  one  can  replace  that  one  that  sleeps  in  death.   The  hope  of  the  resurrection  is  so  wonderful  to me  as  I know it  was  to  Job.  We  will both  be  happy  when  we  see these  children  at  the  resurrection.   Perhaps,  I  will  live  through  the  destruction  of  wickedness or perhaps,  I too,  will  be  like  Job  and  need  resurrection  myself,  but  it  is  all  too  wonderful !!!!


with  affection  from  Marken

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2011 - 1:31AM #3
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Sep 12, 2011 -- 11:23AM, marken wrote:


The  way  I  read  the  bible  is  that  Jehovah personally  loves  EVERY human  that  has  ever  lived  on  this  earth.   He  does  not  love  the  destructive  things  we  do,  but  because  we  were  made  in  his  image,  most  humans  do  good  things  as  well.   Adam  and  Eve  brought  death  and  sin  into  the  world,  and  so,  Jehovah  created  a  new  arrangement  whereby  some  of  these  humans  who  were  born  from  them  would  get  the  right  to  everlasting  life  restored  to  them.  john  3:16.  This  would  apply  after  Jesus  paid  the  ransom for  people  who  had  faith  in  it,  but  also  it  would  be  applied  to  those  who  had  been  born  before  this,  by  resurrection.   Job  reveals  he  knew  of  this  provision  at  chapter  14 verses 13-15.  This  hope  would  have  been  a  comfort  when  all  of  his  children  died.   Just  as  it  comforted  me  when  my  son  died.     Did  the  ten  children  Job  had  later  on  compensate  for  the  10  dead.   I  don`t  think  so.   No  human  can  ever  replace  another  one.   The  science  of  DNA  proves  that,  but  it  did  give  Job  the  wonderful  chance  to love  his  own  living  children  again.  I  love  the  other  children  I have,  and  if  I  had  had  more after  the  death  of  my son,  I  would  appreciate  them  even  more,  but  not  one  can  replace  that  one  that  sleeps  in  death.   The  hope  of  the  resurrection  is  so  wonderful  to me  as  I know it  was  to  Job.  We  will both  be  happy  when  we  see these  children  at  the  resurrection.   Perhaps,  I  will  live  through  the  destruction  of  wickedness or perhaps,  I too,  will  be  like  Job  and  need  resurrection  myself,  but  it  is  all  too  wonderful !!!!


with  affection  from  Marken




Marken, I appreciate your answer, but what I was questioning was how Jehovah felt when he allowed Job's ten children to be slaughtered to prove a challenge that was presented by the Devil.


Was God nonchalant when Job's children were killed since God knew that he had the power to bring them back to life again one day....or was God bothered by the death of these ten children?


I'm just curious about that.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2011 - 2:04AM #4
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 971

Philosophically speaking, Jehovah's standards are not consistant with ours, because you know he said his 'thoughts are higher than our thoughts'  so we can't try to find a consistant standard with him.   Like a parent  that has ultimate control and the last say  THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD .


So being 'made in his image' not sure what that means cuz Jehovah has allowed and even put in place  a lot of  stuff our human society does not tolerate, whole sale genocide, slavery, women as property of men....taking a bet with the devil per thread topic.


THAT SAID,  'he loves us, loves us not'  I think its fair to say that God's definition of love and ours are demostrably different.

In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2011 - 12:09PM #5
marken
Posts: 3,713

Sep 13, 2011 -- 1:31AM, Ed2 wrote:


Sep 12, 2011 -- 11:23AM, marken wrote:


The  way  I  read  the  bible  is  that  Jehovah personally  loves  EVERY human  that  has  ever  lived  on  this  earth.   He  does  not  love  the  destructive  things  we  do,  but  because  we  were  made  in  his  image,  most  humans  do  good  things  as  well.   Adam  and  Eve  brought  death  and  sin  into  the  world,  and  so,  Jehovah  created  a  new  arrangement  whereby  some  of  these  humans  who  were  born  from  them  would  get  the  right  to  everlasting  life  restored  to  them.  john  3:16.  This  would  apply  after  Jesus  paid  the  ransom for  people  who  had  faith  in  it,  but  also  it  would  be  applied  to  those  who  had  been  born  before  this,  by  resurrection.   Job  reveals  he  knew  of  this  provision  at  chapter  14 verses 13-15.  This  hope  would  have  been  a  comfort  when  all  of  his  children  died.   Just  as  it  comforted  me  when  my  son  died.     Did  the  ten  children  Job  had  later  on  compensate  for  the  10  dead.   I  don`t  think  so.   No  human  can  ever  replace  another  one.   The  science  of  DNA  proves  that,  but  it  did  give  Job  the  wonderful  chance  to love  his  own  living  children  again.  I  love  the  other  children  I have,  and  if  I  had  had  more after  the  death  of  my son,  I  would  appreciate  them  even  more,  but  not  one  can  replace  that  one  that  sleeps  in  death.   The  hope  of  the  resurrection  is  so  wonderful  to me  as  I know it  was  to  Job.  We  will both  be  happy  when  we  see these  children  at  the  resurrection.   Perhaps,  I  will  live  through  the  destruction  of  wickedness or perhaps,  I too,  will  be  like  Job  and  need  resurrection  myself,  but  it  is  all  too  wonderful !!!!


with  affection  from  Marken




Marken, I appreciate your answer, but what I was questioning was how Jehovah felt when he allowed Job's ten children to be slaughtered to prove a challenge that was presented by the Devil.


Was God nonchalant when Job's children were killed since God knew that he had the power to bring them back to life again one day....or was God bothered by the death of these ten children?


I'm just curious about that.



What  we  might  question  when  we  are  thinking  of  this,  is  how  did  Jehovah  feel  when  adam  and  eve  brought  death  upon  all  their  descendants?  How  did  he  feel  when  he  looked  at  these  two  wonderful  creations  that  he  had  made  and  knew  that  they  rejected  all  the  good  things  that  he  had  given  them  and  for  what?  A  LIE.   He  knew  when  he  allowed  them  to  have  children  that  these  children  were  born  under  the  condemnation  of  death  and  sin  or imperfection.   But  he  loved  us  all  so  much  that  he  made  another  arrangement  that  his  sent  one  could  buy  the  right  to  everlasting  life  again.   I  personally  feel  he  feels  saddened  every  time  a  human  dies.  Isn't  that  implied  in Jesus' illustration  about  the  sparrows? Luke 12:6-7  He  knew, however,  that  every human  was  going  to die  until   the  day  of  judgement.   Job's  children  would  not  be  alive  today  and  neither  would  Job.   Satan  is  so  full  of  hatred  that  he  will  kill  all  of  us  with  glee,  as  he  did  Job's  children.   We  must  keep  our  faith  until  the  resurrection.   We  can  understand  love  to  some  degree,  can we  love  someone  and  not  feel  very hurt  when he  dies?   Nor  can  Jehovah. 


with  affection  from  Marken

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2011 - 2:46PM #6
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Sep 13, 2011 -- 12:09PM, marken wrote:


Sep 13, 2011 -- 1:31AM, Ed2 wrote:


Sep 12, 2011 -- 11:23AM, marken wrote:


The  way  I  read  the  bible  is  that  Jehovah personally  loves  EVERY human  that  has  ever  lived  on  this  earth.   He  does  not  love  the  destructive  things  we  do,  but  because  we  were  made  in  his  image,  most  humans  do  good  things  as  well.   Adam  and  Eve  brought  death  and  sin  into  the  world,  and  so,  Jehovah  created  a  new  arrangement  whereby  some  of  these  humans  who  were  born  from  them  would  get  the  right  to  everlasting  life  restored  to  them.  john  3:16.  This  would  apply  after  Jesus  paid  the  ransom for  people  who  had  faith  in  it,  but  also  it  would  be  applied  to  those  who  had  been  born  before  this,  by  resurrection.   Job  reveals  he  knew  of  this  provision  at  chapter  14 verses 13-15.  This  hope  would  have  been  a  comfort  when  all  of  his  children  died.   Just  as  it  comforted  me  when  my  son  died.     Did  the  ten  children  Job  had  later  on  compensate  for  the  10  dead.   I  don`t  think  so.   No  human  can  ever  replace  another  one.   The  science  of  DNA  proves  that,  but  it  did  give  Job  the  wonderful  chance  to love  his  own  living  children  again.  I  love  the  other  children  I have,  and  if  I  had  had  more after  the  death  of  my son,  I  would  appreciate  them  even  more,  but  not  one  can  replace  that  one  that  sleeps  in  death.   The  hope  of  the  resurrection  is  so  wonderful  to me  as  I know it  was  to  Job.  We  will both  be  happy  when  we  see these  children  at  the  resurrection.   Perhaps,  I  will  live  through  the  destruction  of  wickedness or perhaps,  I too,  will  be  like  Job  and  need  resurrection  myself,  but  it  is  all  too  wonderful !!!!


with  affection  from  Marken




Marken, I appreciate your answer, but what I was questioning was how Jehovah felt when he allowed Job's ten children to be slaughtered to prove a challenge that was presented by the Devil.


Was God nonchalant when Job's children were killed since God knew that he had the power to bring them back to life again one day....or was God bothered by the death of these ten children?


I'm just curious about that.



What  we  might  question  when  we  are  thinking  of  this,  is  how  did  Jehovah  feel  when  adam  and  eve  brought  death  upon  all  their  descendants?  How  did  he  feel  when  he  looked  at  these  two  wonderful  creations  that  he  had  made  and  knew  that  they  rejected  all  the  good  things  that  he  had  given  them  and  for  what?  A  LIE...





I don't know, marken, but the more that I hear that story, the more it sounds like a delusion that God or someone wants us to believe.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2011 - 2:50PM #7
Kemmer
Posts: 16,714

What  we  might  question  when  we  are  thinking  of  this,  is  how  did  Jehovah  feel  when  adam  and  eve  brought  death  upon  all  their  descendants?  How  did  he  feel  when  he  looked  at  these  two  wonderful  creations  that  he  had  made  and  knew  that  they  rejected  all  the  good  things  that  he  had  given  them  and  for  what?  A  LIE. 



If for a moment I actually believed there ever were an Adam 'n' Eve, it would be my opinion that eating that fruit was the most important thing anyone has ever done to advance humanity.  If they had left the "fruit" alone, we'd be nothing more than God's pet house cats.


Sort of like the "Eloi" of Jules Verne's The Time Machine.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2011 - 2:59PM #8
matica
Posts: 3,067

Christians are not supposed to place bets, and here we have god placing a bet with satan.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2011 - 1:13AM #9
Upperlimits
Posts: 3,063

Sep 14, 2011 -- 2:59PM, matica wrote:


Christians are not supposed to place bets, and here we have god placing a bet with satan.





Are you suggesting "Spanish Train" by Chris DeBurgh?

According to 2nd Corinthians 3:2, there are five gospels in the world. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Epistle of ones own life.  Most people will probably never read the first four.

God desires that our lives would bear spiritual fruit - not religious nuts.
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2011 - 2:57PM #10
matica
Posts: 3,067

Sep 16, 2011 -- 1:13AM, Upperlimits wrote:


Sep 14, 2011 -- 2:59PM, matica wrote:


Christians are not supposed to place bets, and here we have god placing a bet with satan.





Are you suggesting "Spanish Train" by Chris DeBurgh?





Never heard of it.

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