Page 4 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next
3 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 9:05AM #31
MrBear
Posts: 426

".... perhaps it should be stated that nobody here thus far has been attacking the Faith and its tenets. Only when that happens, do the Bahá'ís have the duty to counter the attacks with a more aggressive apologetic strategy. Were someone to engage in direct hostility towards the Faith, I would be the first one to accept the challenge. Such, however, has not been the case."


1/ With the certainty that the assertion can be substantiated/demonstrated/confirmed...what does it say about the culture within the Baha'i community given that ex Baha'is/unenrolled Baha'is have been subject to hundreds and hundreds of these baseless slander allegations of "attacking the Faith"- "attacking Baha'u'llah" for well over a decade?  


2/ While grateful for the concession to reality- "nobody here thus far has been attacking the Faith and its tenets" what does it say about the culture within the Baha'i community that this (independent 3rd person) recognition that no "attack" is taking place is a near unique and singular event over the same decade+ period?


3/ If it can be shown and substantiated that the longstanding "aggressive apologetic strategy" has been to obfuscate, misrepresent, falsify, lie, fabricate, forge and publicly slander...why is defence of basic principle (truth, honesty, fair play) so lamentably absent from Baha'i apologetics?


I restate and emphasise my gratitude...I greatly appreciate your voicing the evident facts- "nobody here thus far has been attacking the Faith"...and I implore your indulgence. In hundreds and hundreds of directly paralel exchanges and circumstances over the years I have waited for and/or advocated such simple-straightforward common decency from the Baha'i gallery...only to hear silence, evasion, apologetics, tribalism or tacit support for ongoing baseless accusation and slander.


Why is defence of such basic/fundamental principle so rare as to be almost unique among Baha'is?

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 07, 2011 - 12:53PM #32
Aka_me
Posts: 12,151

Sep 6, 2011 -- 7:36AM, Lilwabbit wrote:

An uncontrollable itch impelled me to return to this sorry thread one last time.



if I had it to do over again, I would change to:


what logical points can be made that the writings of Baha'u'llah are not from God?


the idea is that, of all the threads in this "the debate forum"... they seem to be stuck on secondary issues such as:


(atheist) God does not exist - which is not uniquely against the validity of the Baha'i writings.


(unenrolled) the members have faults - which is not the fault of the writings.


(theist) my theology says - which says nothing about the Baha'i writings.


 


my curiousity (though poorly articulated) was to demonstrate that no solid point can be made that the writings are not the Will of God (having moved past the issue of "does God exist" and "members have faults").


it would be supporting (supporting is different than conclusive) evidence in favor of the writings being the Will of God *IF* no solid point can be made to the contrary.


whether or not any meaningful conversation can take place is doubtful, participants are demonstrably obsessed with focusing only on their secondary issues.

not being able to debate is one thing, employing censorship to avoid debate is beyond words.
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 7:20AM #33
MrBear
Posts: 426

 



what logical points can be made that the writings of Baha'u'llah are not from God?”



 


Ok....I’ll play.


If the writings of Baha’u’llah are from God then it is reasonable to presume that after the passage of 150+year this God given dispensation has begun to leaven the body of believers to some small but identifiable degree.  We might find Baha’is generally recognised for virtues and principles- courtesy, honesty, trustworthiness, truthfulness, integrity, openness, reciprocity, justice- and that such might be noted above the common standard and norm.


Instead, as individuals and in collective Baha’i procedures, we find ample and abundant evidence that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse.


An objective outsider might reasonably conclude that from the abundant evidence the Baha’is are not only no better in behaviour than secular counterparts...they are, in many respects, far behind and a lot worse.


An experienced observer would point out that one need not blame nor find fault with the ‘Baha’i writings’ but rather recognise that the very Ataraxis (possessive love) of holding/possessing the Baha’i writings leads many Baha’is to false conclusions, false identification and lamentable behaviour.


i.e. “The Baha’i faith is from God and perfect. I am a Baha’i...my identification as Baha’i is total and all consuming. Any criticism or critique of individual Baha’i behaviour and/or Baha’i community culture and procedures is a personal attack, an attack on Baha’u’llah, an attack on the Baha’i faith, an attack on the writings and an attack on God”


See 15#



“the fact that members have joined any theology... is due to them believing the prophet as a fountain head of revelation from God.hammering away on faults of the members, equates to "the theology holds no truth"


"the theology holds no truth", equates to "the prophet is a lunatic".



 Cut and dried, pure and simple...identify the "faults of the members" and this equates with saying "the prophet is a lunatic".


When such absurd reasoning and subsequent slandering behaviours are identified, exposed and called out for what they are (well short of common decency) the complaint is steadfastly ignored and/or fobbed off as fixation on “secondary issues”. The Baha’i gallery will provide tacit support by discussing anything but the slander and thus continues a cycle which is nothing short of abusive.


Any sane and reasonable human being witnessing such abusive behaviours would be quite entitled to ask- “How does this reflect an ‘advancing civilization’ or ‘the Will of God’...”?


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 7:30AM #34
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,896

Sep 8, 2011 -- 7:20AM, MrBear wrote:


 



what logical points can be made that the writings of Baha'u'llah are not from God?”



If the writings of Baha’u’llah are from God then it is reasonable to presume that after the passage of 150+year this God given dispensation has begun to leaven the body of believers to some small but identifiable degree.  We might find Baha’is generally recognised for virtues and principles- courtesy, honesty, trustworthiness, truthfulness, integrity, openness, reciprocity, justice- and that such might be noted above the common standard and norm.



Amen.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 5:15PM #35
MrBear
Posts: 426

Sep 8, 2011 -- 7:30AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Sep 8, 2011 -- 7:20AM, MrBear wrote:


 



what logical points can be made that the writings of Baha'u'llah are not from God?”



If the writings of Baha’u’llah are from God then it is reasonable to presume that after the passage of 150+year this God given dispensation has begun to leaven the body of believers to some small but identifiable degree.  We might find Baha’is generally recognised for virtues and principles- courtesy, honesty, trustworthiness, truthfulness, integrity, openness, reciprocity, justice- and that such might be noted above the common standard and norm.



Amen.





"Instead, as individuals and in collective Baha’i procedures, we find ample and abundant evidence that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse."

Moderated by Merope on Sep 10, 2011 - 04:24AM
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 11:51PM #36
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,896

Sep 8, 2011 -- 5:15PM, MrBear wrote:


"Instead, as individuals and in collective Baha’i procedures, we find ample and abundant evidence that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse."




Just like Roxana Saberi in the above interview, I have found far ampler evidence to the contrary while living for over 30 years in different Bahá'ís communities in two continents and interacting with Bahá'ís from five continents. So have the following non-Bahá'í individuals. I guess they have been duped.


PM Gordon Brown:


Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. He took office on 27 June 2007, three days after becoming leader of the Labour Party. Prior to this he served as the Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1997-2007, becoming the United Kingdom’s longest serving Chancellor since the early 19th century.


“I would like to express my respect and admiration to the Baha’i community which makes a contribution to British life out of all proportion to its size. The principles of the Baha’i faith are rightly shared and appreciated by many in our different communities. It is therefore all the more tragic that Baha’is around the world face prejudice and discrimination. I very much welcome your increased participation in public life and hope you will build on this in the future.”


21 April 2009


PM Tony Blair:


Tony Blair was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1997-2007. He was the Labour Party’s longest-serving Prime Minister and the only leader to have taken the party to three consecutive general election victories. On a number of occasions, Mr Blair sent the UK Baháí community messages for the celebration of Naw-Rúz. On 30 May 2008, Tony Blair launched the Tony Blair Faith Foundation as a vehicle for encouraging different faiths to join together in promoting respect and understanding, as well as working to tackle poverty. Reflecting Blair’s own faith, but not dedicated to any particular religion, the Foundation aims to “show how faith is a powerful force for good in the modern world.”


“The United Kingdom deeply values the presence of the Baha’i community and the unique contribution you make. The words of your founder, that “the earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens”, have perhaps an even greater resonance in 2007 than ever before. The universal challenges of climate change, and its potentially disastrous impact on millions of people across the globe, remind us forcefully that we are all fellow citizens of the world, all sharing in its destiny. As we confront these challenges I have no doubt that you, and your fellow Baha’is in other countries, have much to contribute to the debate and the pursuit of possible solutions, drawing on the tradition of working for social justice of which Baha’is can rightly be so proud.”


21 March 2007


“I warmly commend all that the Baha’i community does for social cohesion and better inter-faith relations, which makes such a valuable contribution to our society. Your commitment to tackling discrimination and promoting our shared humanity is particularly important. I hope that this work will become increasingly wellknown.”


21 March 2006


Dan Rather, American journalist:


Dan Rather is an acclaimed US journalist and former news anchor for the CBS Evening News. He is now managing editor and anchor of the television news magazine, Dan Rather Reports, on the cable channel HDNet. His 2001 book, The American Dream: Stories from the Heart of Our Nation contained stories of people pursuing their version of the American dream. One of his interviewees was an Iranian Bahá’í who went to the United States in search of freedom of religion.


“Their faith asks them to work toward eliminating prejudice of all kinds. Women and men are equals in Bahá’í families … Bahá’í are encouraged to promote their religion but to avoid proselytizing in any way that would infringe on the privacy or rights of others. Each Bahá’í is expected to obey the laws of the country in which he or she lives and to serve the needs of his or her community. They are instructed to avoid partisan politics and do not accept political appointments. Essentially, Bahá’í do not pose a threat to any religion or to any of the more than 250 nations and territories in which they live. They are not revolutionaries. They are, however, committed to changing the world through faith and education. Because they are peaceful and unobtrusive, it can be difficult to understand why they have been singled out for persecution in Iran…”


Gabrielle Mueller-Trimbusch, Deputy-Mayor of Stuttgart, Germany:


Gabriele Mueller-Trimbusch is Deputy-Mayor for Welfare, Youth and Health in the City of Stuttgart, Germany.


The respect you pay to other world religions, your openness for people who have different opinions, your message of peace for the world we live in, makes you a greatly appreciated partner for us. Stuttgart highly values the activities of the Bahá’í community, because it participates in the social life of our city in an exemplary manner.”


Kahlil Gibran, Writer and Poet:


Kahlil Gibran was a Lebanese-American writer, poet, artist and philosopher. Since its publication in 1923, his inspirational book,The Prophet, has never been out of print and remains an international best-seller. Juliet Thompson wrote that Gibran “got hold of some of the Arabic of Bahá’u'lláh. He said it was “the most stupendous literature that ever was written, and that…there was no Arabic that even touched the Arabic of Bahà’u'llàh.” Later Gibran met ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. “He simply adored the Master. He was with Him whenever he could be,” wrote Thompson. “He told me that when he wrote The Son of Man, he thought of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá all through. He said that he was going to write another book with ‘Abdu’l-Bahá as the centre and all the contemporaries of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá speaking. He died before he wrote it. He told me definitely that The Son of Man was influenced by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.”


George Nathaniel Curzon, British Statesman:


George Nathaniel Curzon – the first Marquess Curzon of Kedleston – was a British Conservative statesman who served as Viceroy of India and Foreign Secretary. His extensive travels – including a year-long sojourn in Persia from 1889-1890, resulted in several books describing central and eastern Asia and related policy issues.


“The lowest estimate places the present number of Bábís in Persia at half a million. I am disposed to think, from conversations with persons well qualified to judge, that the total is nearer one million. They are to be found in every walk of life, from the ministers and nobles of
the Court to the scavenger or the groom, not the least arena of their activity being the Mussulman priesthood itself. It will have been noticed that the movement was initiated by Siyyids, Hajis and Mullas, i.e., persons who, either by descent, from pious inclination, or by profession, were intimately concerned with the Muhammadan creed; and it is among even the professed votaries of the faith that they continue to make their converts…”


“If one conclusion more than another has been forced upon our notice by the retrospect in which I have indulged, it is that a sublime and unmurmuring devotion has been inculcated by this new faith, whatever it be. There is, I believe, but one instance of a Bábí having recanted under pressure of menace of suffering, and he reverted to the faith and was executed within two years. Tales of magnificent heroism illumine the bloodstained pages of Bábí history. Ignorant and unlettered as many of its votaries are, and have been, they are yet prepared to die for their religion, and fires of Smithfield did not kindle a nobler courage than has met and defied the more
refined torture-mongers of Tihran. Of no small account, then, must be the tenets of a creed that can awaken in its followers so rare and beautiful a spirit of self-sacrifice. From the facts that Babiism in its earliest years found itself in conflict with the civil powers and that an attempt was made by Bábís upon the life of the Shah, it has been wrongly inferred that the movement was political in origin and Nihilist in character. It does not appear from a study of the writings either of the Báb or his successors, that there is any foundation for
such a suspicion…”


“The charge of immorality seems to have arisen partly from the malignant inventions of opponents, partly from the much greater freedom claimed for women by the Báb, which in the oriental mind is scarcely dissociable from profligacy of conduct… The pure and suffering life of the Báb, his ignominious death, the heroism and martyrdom of his followers, will appeal to many others who can find no similar phenomena in the contemporaneous records of Islam….”


From Persia, Vol. 1 (1892)


Mahatma Gandhi:


”Tha Bahá’í Faith is a solace to mankind.”

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2011 - 4:18AM #37
MrBear
Posts: 426

Sep 8, 2011 -- 11:51PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Sep 8, 2011 -- 5:15PM, MrBear wrote:


"Instead, as individuals and in collective Baha’i procedures, we find ample and abundant evidence that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse."




Just like Roxanna Saberi in the above interview, I have found far ampler evidence to the contrary while living for over 30 years in different Bahá'ís communities in two continents and interacting with Bahá'ís from five continents. So have the following non-Bahá'í individuals. I guess they have been duped.





While you highlight in red the assertion " we find ample and abundant evidence that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse."....you say NOTHING WHATSOEVER to this assertion. You do not question it, you do not challenge it, you do not ask what "ample and abundant evidence" might be available.....you do not wish to know. 


To ignore the evidence and attempt to provide "ampler evidence to the contrary" reflects the very obfuscation and denial I spoke of.


The counter you provide is irrelivent on the following grounds-


1/ A claim to contrary personal experience- not demonstrable and does not negate or diminish the evidence available.  


2/ Quotes from high prophile public/political figures- all speak to appreciation of the Baha'i faith/principles in general (no arguement there)- none speak to/deny/touch upon the issues raised- "that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse." (i.e. ANY group/Nation may be broadly praiseworthy and yet be subject to legitimate criticism over specific issues...America is a great nation- diminished in that it has the highest incarceration rate in the world).


3/ One does not have to be "duped" to recognise that while a group/Nation may aspire to and generally reflect high principles there may still be grave/serious negative cultural aspects to be adressed and/or basic proceedures implimented to redress injustice.


Like all Baha'i predecessors you prove my point in your disinterest,obfuscation,evasion and refusal to even question or consider the posibility that there may be "ample and abundant evidence" ....like all that preceed you- you just don't want to know.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2011 - 4:36AM #38
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,896

Sep 9, 2011 -- 4:18AM, MrBear wrote:


Sep 8, 2011 -- 11:51PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Sep 8, 2011 -- 5:15PM, MrBear wrote:


"Instead, as individuals and in collective Baha’i procedures, we find ample and abundant evidence that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse."




Just like Roxanna Saberi in the above interview, I have found far ampler evidence to the contrary while living for over 30 years in different Bahá'ís communities in two continents and interacting with Bahá'ís from five continents. So have the following non-Bahá'í individuals. I guess they have been duped.





While you highlight in red the assertion " we find ample and abundant evidence that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse."....you say NOTHING WHATSOEVER to this assertion. You do not question it, you do not challenge it, you do not ask what "ample and abundant evidence" might be available.....you do not wish to know.



For the record, I have no trouble accepting that there may be individual believers who fit your description. However, in all honesty, I have yet to meet one quite as ill-disposed. I have generally failed to meet anyone in person, irrespective of creed, sex and colour, who fits caricatures -- positive or negative. I seriously doubt there are enough of such individuals to even be considered a notable minority in the Bahá'í world community. But as far as I have understood, you have not even claimed that "most" Bahá'ís fit your description. Are you changing your tune now? If you now do claim that most Bahá'ís fit your description, I am more than willing to discuss your evidence (hopefully representative of the majority of the world's Bahá'ís) and evaluate its scientific merits. However, if you do not, I find any attempt to prove or to disprove the notoriety of some particular individuals on "Discuss Bahá'í Faith" both off-topic and inappropriate.


With kind regards,


LilWabbit


P.S. The prominent people quoted in the above did not only talk about the principles but expressed their admiration for the Bahá'í community and its activity in advancing important themes in a peaceful and constructive manner.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2011 - 7:03AM #39
MrBear
Posts: 426

Point by point-


 For the record, I have no trouble accepting that there may be individual believers who fit your description.


 I made no “description” of “individual believers” nor described anyone as “ill-disposed”  nor offered “caricatures” ...I referred to specific behaviours and asserted there is abundant evidence thereof . Among those specific behaviours I mentioned- “falsify, forge, misrepresent”....and the evidence thereof is on the table and in the thread. So too is the evidence of “slander and falsely accuse” so too the evidence of “obfuscate,  turn blind eye”. You say you are “more than willing to discuss [the] evidence” and yet not only do you ignore it...you participate in generating more thereof.


 Please consider....While some make the absurd error of assuming any criticism of specific behaviour translates as criticism of the whole Baha’i faith/Baha’u’llah/writings/God...you make the follow-up error of assuming that criticism of ‘specific-identified behaviour’ is criticism/judgement of the individual.


 NO.


 It is quite possible/profitable and legitimate to identify and criticise negative behaviours WITHOUT thinking or making reference to any judgement, condemnation, caricature or presumption that the other is “ill-disposed”.


 However, in all honesty, I have yet to meet one quite as ill-disposed. I have generally failed to meet anyone in person, irrespective of creed, sex and colour, who fits caricatures -- positive or negative.


As above....I am NOT describing/attacking/making judgement/criticising or condemning individuals nor offering “caricatures” regarding or describing individuals.


 >IF< you are “more than willing to discuss the evidence” then begin by considering the real nature of the assertion and abandon the presumption/misrepresentation of attack on individual Baha’is or Baha’is as a group.


 I seriously doubt there are enough of such individuals to even be considered a notable minority in the Bahá'í world community


 A “doubt” based on untestable/non concrete subjective opinion that evades and misrepresents the point/issue.


The question/issue/point remains- Is there evidence of the assertion (with focus on behaviour)- “that individual Baha’is will lie, falsify, forge, slander, misrepresent and falsely accuse while collectively they will obfuscate, deny fair hearing/due process, turn blind eye to abuse”- IN THIS VERY THREAD.


 I have thrice provided and specified specific examples and you/all choose to cut and ignore them.


But as far as I have understood, you have not even claimed that "most" Bahá'ís fit your description.


 No...of course I have not made such a claim...it is false, irrelevant and yet another obfuscating distraction from the issue/point. (To establish that women are frequently abused in Afganistan and that this is a serious/significant behavioural/cultural problem I do not have to claim/establish that “most” Afgan or Moslem men are sexist. Likewise identifying serious/significant behavioural/cultural problems within Baha’i)


 Are you changing your tune now? If you now do claim that most Bahá'ís fit your description,


 No. You offer Straw Man evasion. I did NOT describe people I described ‘behaviour’...I did NOT make any reference to numbers/percentages exhibiting such behaviours.


 I did refer to misrepresentation, obfuscation and turning a blind eye...and you are, in your behaviour, providing perfect example and proving my point.


  I am more than willing to discuss your evidence (hopefully representative of the majority of the world's Bahá'ís )and evaluate its scientific merits.


That is a claim as yet undemonstrated. I provided ‘evidence’ in 33# in the quote from 15#...You/all ignore it...and the point, and the issue...and will speak of and to ANYTHING other than the evidence.


However, if you do not, I find any attempt to prove or to disprove the notoriety of some particular individuals on "Discuss Bahá'í Faith" both off-topic and inappropriate.


 Yet again...you cannot/will not consider the evidence presented but rather go headlong into non issue/straw man/irrelevance- “... prove or to disprove the notoriety of some particular individuals”.... Did I say or suggest anything about “the notoriety of some particular individuals”?....No.



P.S. The prominent people quoted in the above did not only talk about the principles but expressed their admiration for the Bahá'í community and its activity in advancing important themes in a peaceful and constructive manner.




 Yes. I understood that. It did not/does not change the fact that not one of the quotes related to or negated the assertion I made.


 If you say to me- “There is serious child abuse transpiring in this family and I have evidence thereof”....What does it say if my ONLY response is to testify as to the good character of the family?...To speak of how long I have known them?...To suggest you would have to prove all or “most” are so “ill disposed”? ...To trot out innumerable good references from notables?...To assert such acts could only be reflective of a “notable minority”?


 And if I  NEVER-EVER- ONCE consider the evidence or express interest in the evidence or demonstrate preparedness to even hear the evidence?........What kind of 'behaviour' would I be demonstrating other than 'denial', 'obfuscation' and 'turning a blind eye to abuse'?


Moderated by Merope on Sep 10, 2011 - 04:15AM
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2011 - 9:01AM #40
MrBear
Posts: 426

Sep 9, 2011 -- 7:48AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


See 15#




“the fact that members have joined any theology... is due to them believing the prophet as a fountain head of revelation from God.hammering away on faults of the members, equates to "the theology holds no truth"




"the theology holds no truth", equates to "the prophet is a lunatic".



Cut and dried, pure and simple...identify the "faults of the members" and this equates with saying "the prophet is a lunatic".



I fail to see evidence (read: hard facts). I do see, to quote you, "an untestable / non-concrete subjective opinion that evades and misrepresents the point/issue." Firstly, how does your subjective claim of the Bahá'ís "hammering away on faults of the members" suddenly amount to evidence on Bahá'ís hammering away on faults of the members?




15# and the entire ""hammering away" quote are evidence provided by another Baha'i contributor.


Moderated by Merope on Sep 10, 2011 - 04:12AM
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 4 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook