Feb 18, 2012 -- 10:40PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:

If holding what is false is just as legitimate/acceptable as holding what is true, then why argue for anything being true or false?

Who said anything about holding what is false to be as legitimate/acceptable as being true? 

I just think it's important to recognize what you know of as true, and what you believe. 

all

I don't think there is any honor or good in holding what is false.  We expect people to do what is honorable and good, so if we believe something to be true, we would expect other people to also hold it as true.

However, if one has no conviction about what they believe to be true, then of course they are not going to expect others to also believe it's true.    It comes down to how convinced we are that something is true… as to our expectations of other people holding it as true.   Little conviction, little expectation.  Much conviction, much expectation.

Feb 19, 2012 -- 12:03AM, jonny42 wrote:

I don't think there is any honor or good in holding what is false.  We expect people to do what is honorable and good, so if we believe something to be true, we would expect other people to also hold it as true.

Jonny, one of the many things I hold to be true is that the basic doctrines of modern Christianity are not true.

By your reasoning I should expect you, an honorable and good person, to also hold that to be true.

Of course, I don't expect you to change what you hold as true.  And I don't believe that you should expect me to change my beliefs to what you hold as true.

Feb 19, 2012 -- 12:11AM, mainecaptain wrote:

Feb 18, 2012 -- 10:40PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:

Feb 18, 2012 -- 12:41PM, jonny42 wrote:

  We expect friends to hold as true what we tell them is true. 

Sounds like a recipie for boring friends. 

Sound like friends who are androids. I imagine ones friends believe us when we speak, but "hold as true what we tell them is true". Not just boring friends, but not very intelligent either. Unable to think for themselves.

Maine, I think we're all confused and missed good ol' Jonny's point.  He wasn't talking about HUMAN friends-obviously not as the definition could only be described as "obtuse".  

Clearly the lad meant the friends a fluffy sheep would have and reciprocate. 

Feb 19, 2012 -- 12:03AM, jonny42 wrote:

I don't think there is any honor or good in holding what is false.

Who gets to determine which is true and false? The Ford owner? The person who prefers small town life to that of large cities? The Republican or the Democrat? The one who loves chicken fried, or the one who prefers baked?

Feb 19, 2012 -- 12:03AM, jonny42 wrote:

We expect people to do what is honorable and good, so if we believe something to be true, we would expect other people to also hold it as true.

In your opinion then, it is honorable and good for everyone to work off of the same sheet music even though there is another song out there with a melody that makes them want to sing? In other words, you want people to accept your truth, and not go where their truths lead them. Please tell me where the honor is in this? Please!

Anyone who would choke off another's spirituality, regardless where that road leads them is not an honorabl person, and is not someone who could even begin to describe the word, much less force another to live under his honor code. An honorable person shows his honor and respect by allowing others to explore their own spiritual paths the same way they would allow them to follow their secular dreams in love and vocation. What you call honor is a conditional accpetance of people. As if to say "I will honor you, and validate your choices so long as they mimic my own.... otherwise, you are without honor". Is this what your religious path teaches you? What an empty shell of an existance you must have.

Feb 19, 2012 -- 12:03AM, jonny42 wrote:

However, if one has no conviction about what they believe to be true, then of course they are not going to expect others to also believe it's true.

In my opinion, it is those whose conviction is so weak in what they believe, in order for it to be valid, they must insisit all others fall under the same belief. They are that uncomfortable in the possibility that they may be left standing alone in the field they must insist that everyone think the same, feel the same, and follow the same spitritual doctrine. Where the hypocracy shows through best it the way people who feel this way can't even come to any agreement within their own religious beliefs. Christians haven't evolved to the point where they can agree within denominations, much less other belief systems. Before you go into a long list of denials, Jonny, look at how the different denominations under the umbrella of Christianity fail to get along. The religion isn't content with simply building fences between other religions, they have to build fences between denominations of their own religion. And then resort to bull shyte such as this about people lacking in conviction. In my opinion, All with his Nordic beliefs is just as convinced in the truth of his beliefs as I am with my Celtic ones. ANd we don't argue as to who has the best belief system, or build walls to keep us seperate. We have enough conviction of our spiritual fulfillment that we can actually live it and don't have to force it upon others to validate our convictions. Just like a man assured of his own masculinity has nothing to fear when in the company of a homosexual.....

Your religion, Christianity, has shown itself to be so weak in it['s own convictions that it has created weak people who would try to exert their strength in forcing their beliefs on others than by simply coexisting side by side with them in peace.

Feb 19, 2012 -- 12:03AM, jonny42 wrote:

It comes down to how convinced we are that something is true… as to our expectations of other people holding it as true.   Little conviction, little expectation.  Much conviction, much expectation.

I am confident enough in my spiritual beliefs that I don't need any outside source to validate them for me. Obviously you do have this need. Why else would you go to such lengths to make people believe a bag of shyte is air freshener?

Feb 19, 2012 -- 12:53PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Wonderful post  John.

I am extremely secure in my beliefs. I live them every single day. I dn't require anyone else to believe or follow as I do. Everyone is on their own spiritual journey, it is not the same for any one.

Likewise... and notice us atheist Buddhists and Pagan theists tend to get along with mutual respect just fine.  Funny how simple it seems to us, to not need to cram our respective beliefs down each other's throats, or feel threatened by differences of opinion.  Our ability to dialog... and actually LISTEN to each other.  

On this board it seems like we have some special quality as it stands out as a minority stance.  In reality, it's nothing special, just basic humanity.  As I said recently, quoting Paine-those on the other side of the fence have made themselves prisoners of their own beliefs, unable to listen to or respect  those of others.