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Switch to Forum Live View The stakes in Philly...
3 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2011 - 7:12PM #1
cherubino
Posts: 7,277
...for Archbishop Chaput and the victims of clerical abuse. Here they are, hot off the grill, and as you'll see, there's a long story behind this appointment.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2011 - 10:01PM #2
mokantx
Posts: 3,813

Aug 7, 2011 -- 7:12PM, cherubino wrote:

...for Archbishop Chaput and the victims of clerical abuse. Here they are, hot off the grill, and as you'll see, there's a long story behind this appointment.




Cher


Surely you're not suggesting that the Vatican might send Chaput there because his first priority is to save the church money, rather than to care for the victims, or do do the correct and pastoral thing?  I'm shocked at the very thought...  Why, we all know how well the Vatican has served out the Gospel values and mandates relative to the scandal...


 


OK, so maybe on this one, the Vatican has decided (once again) to play hardball.  My suspicion is that this is not the time to play hardball in that archdiocese.  They may win legal battles, but by playing hardball right now, I'm guessing they'll trigger a strong exodus, as people walk away. 


And if that does happen, it will simply confirm my growing suspicions that Benedict and his team have adopted a strategy that it's better to hold onto the organizational structure they like/want/feel is best, even if it costs the church over half of it's population.  The logic will be that several generations after they are gone, their predecessors will be able to evangelize and re-fill the pews, with people for whom this is all beyond their memory, and well after the church has had the chance to rewrite history in a manner that furthers the image that it was the church that was wronged by secular society...


I genuinely hope I'm wrong about Chaput, but I have to say: early signs are not promising.


 


mo


 

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2011 - 10:28PM #3
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

mo,


He's certainly not being sent there to reach out to those who've been disillusioned and disaffected. That, 'twould seem, is a luxury the Philadelphia Archdiocese cannot afford at this time.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2011 - 10:39PM #4
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Cher and Mo


Philly is an enigma to me. I've sensed that was a Catholic enclave sort of place. That seems to have changed, though. And I wonder if Chaput can run rough-shod in an East Coast archdiocese.


Benedict and his palace guard are so isolated (by choice) one wonders if they have even a notion that what they are about isn't working for the most part and won't in the future. They are not teflon-coated despite their penchant for panoply, etc. Often it appears they want to preserve that which no longer exists.


Had to chuckle a bit about Chaput's input with OUR SUNDAY VISITOR.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2011 - 9:42AM #5
mokantx
Posts: 3,813

Aug 7, 2011 -- 10:39PM, jane2 wrote:


Cher and Mo


Philly is an enigma to me. I've sensed that was a Catholic enclave sort of place. That seems to have changed, though. And I wonder if Chaput can run rough-shod in an East Coast archdiocese.


Benedict and his palace guard are so isolated (by choice) one wonders if they have even a notion that what they are about isn't working for the most part and won't in the future. They are not teflon-coated despite their penchant for panoply, etc. Often it appears they want to preserve that which no longer exists.


Had to chuckle a bit about Chaput's input with OUR SUNDAY VISITOR.


 




Jane


I think it may be important to remember just how powerful the position of papal nuncio is or can be.  I think that person is often the one who "talks around" and ultimately has a strong voice in submitting names for promotion, as well as names for assignments.  I know Law also has a strong position/voice in this stuff, but if memory serves, the Papal Nuncio is a key player in this. 


Couple that with the politics it takes to get the assignment as Nuncio, and the game gets pretty interesting actually.  All in all though, part of the reason the Pope CAN isolate himself is that he has (or his predecessors have) vested a lot of power and reliance on those nuncio spots.  I think the power/importance of those positions comes apparent in Ireland, where some of the politicians talked about deporting theirs, only to have Rome actually pull the guy in its own form of pique...


mo

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2011 - 4:00PM #6
gilg
Posts: 5,199

As Chaput likes to say, he will only be doing his job. From all indications his job is saving the church money, blurring the distinction between church and state, and driving out dissent, excommunicating Catholic politicians that aren't Republican, and promoting his personal agenda whatever that may be. He is a politician first, a hatchet man second, and a loyal Catholic and somewhere along the line a Christian. He will solve the problem in Philly because only the uber sheep will remain.  


I find it interesting that he can preach like a Protetant when addressing a Protestant crowd and talk like an uber-bishop when addressing Catholics, particularly Catholics that dissent.


From Bishop Chaput emphasizing Christ:



The vocation of Christians in American public life does not have a Baptist or Catholic or Greek Orthodox or any other brand-specific label. . . . Our job is to love God, preach Jesus Christ, serve and defend God's people, and sanctify the world as his agents. To do that work, we need to be one. Not "one" in pious words or good intentions, but really one, perfectly one, in mind and heart and action, as Christ intended."



ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/chaput...



To Catholics he reformulates the focus to loyalty to the heirarchy: 


Although sin and failure "need to be named," he said, "when people deride their bishops and priests out of pride and resentment or some perverse desire for what they perceive as ‘power,’ they undermine the Church herself, and they set themselves against the God, whose vessel she is."


Read more:



www.ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop...


See also: they don't get it and chuput isn't cleaning up the real problem: 

blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_post/2011...


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3 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2011 - 4:36PM #7
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Aug 8, 2011 -- 9:42AM, mokantx wrote:


Aug 7, 2011 -- 10:39PM, jane2 wrote:


Cher and Mo


Philly is an enigma to me. I've sensed that was a Catholic enclave sort of place. That seems to have changed, though. And I wonder if Chaput can run rough-shod in an East Coast archdiocese.


Benedict and his palace guard are so isolated (by choice) one wonders if they have even a notion that what they are about isn't working for the most part and won't in the future. They are not teflon-coated despite their penchant for panoply, etc. Often it appears they want to preserve that which no longer exists.


Had to chuckle a bit about Chaput's input with OUR SUNDAY VISITOR.


 




Jane


I think it may be important to remember just how powerful the position of papal nuncio is or can be.  I think that person is often the one who "talks around" and ultimately has a strong voice in submitting names for promotion, as well as names for assignments.  I know Law also has a strong position/voice in this stuff, but if memory serves, the Papal Nuncio is a key player in this. 


Couple that with the politics it takes to get the assignment as Nuncio, and the game gets pretty interesting actually.  All in all though, part of the reason the Pope CAN isolate himself is that he has (or his predecessors have) vested a lot of power and reliance on those nuncio spots.  I think the power/importance of those positions comes apparent in Ireland, where some of the politicians talked about deporting theirs, only to have Rome actually pull the guy in its own form of pique...


mo




Mo


Your reply underscores much of what educated American Catholics deplore, and to some degree what Rome deplores about Americans.


Getting a tad snarky I sometimes think of Benedict as Papa Smurf, ya know a cartoon personality with an authority complex. (I don't know the Papa Smurf character, just the picture.)


Just checked out Papa Smurf : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Smurf Seems he really cares about those he leads unlike too many prelates.


Up the Irish for daring to tell Rome what they are thinking.




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3 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2011 - 4:37PM #8
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Gilg


Re post #6--way to go..................................

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2011 - 9:16PM #9
Mareczku
Posts: 2,220

"Perverse desire for what they see as power!!!!"  He is accusing the laity of this.  Have they learned NOTHING from the abuse crisis?  Some of these guys have lorded it over us for so long that the power seems to have gone to THEIR heads.  I am really shaking my head here.


Peace - Mark 

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2011 - 9:23PM #10
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Aug 9, 2011 -- 9:16PM, Mareczku wrote:


"Perverse desire for what they see as power!!!!"  He is accusing the laity of this.  Have they learned NOTHING from the abuse crisis?  Some of these guys have lorded it over us for so long that the power seems to have gone to THEIR heads.  I am really shaking my head here.


Peace - Mark 




Hi Mark


Great post from a Pennsylvanian!!


Jane




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