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1 year ago  ::  Jun 08, 2013 - 1:36PM #21
river8101
Posts: 5,540

Ben, Please ignore him.  He does this to every Jew who posts on Beliefnet forum.  Don't argue with him, you'll get no where and he'll end up insulting you and all the Jewish people as the Christians have done for 2000 years.  Of course they didn't only insult us, most of what they did was much, much worse.  If you keep answering him, he'll just tell more lies about our beliefs.  Put him on block and then you won't have to read him. There are more important things to discuss. 


Besides he is not even a Messianic Jew or a Jew.  He's a Roman Catholic, therefore there is very little we have in common and the arguing will never end. 

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 2:12PM #22
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

It is quite obvious that sense of humor is not an abundant commodity near you ...



BS"D


That might indeed be true.  Please forgive me when I fail to perceive what is meant as humorous when there exists no common linguistic mechanism to indicate whether a sentence is meant as serious or humorous.


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

I side with Karl Popper, who argued that psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience because its claims are not testable and cannot be refuted, and, while he did not object to the idea that some mental processes could be unconscious, he objected to the scientificity of the "investigations" of the unconscious, because they are not falsifiable.



Fair enough.  You choose to believe Popper's characterization of Freudian psychoanalysis as subjective similar to that of contemporary Jungian psychoanalysis.  I choose not to delude myself with such an academic perceptual error.  The truth is that all perception is subjective and cannot be subject to dispute.  If Popper chooses to confuse that underlying reality with the advances in Psychoanalysis in making the subjective more accessible to the testable and demonstrable, that is his affair alone (and yours, apparently.)


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

It is evident that you confuse and conflate Christianity and Gnosticism, then ... just like Celsus did ...



Uhhh, Gnosticism IS a branch of Christianity.   I did not "conflate" them I just pointed out that the Christianity being represented by the other poster WAS Gnosticism as opposed to, say, Catholicism or Methodism.


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Come off it at once! The problem is entirely with the clumsily convoluted way in which you (try to) express your confused thoughts in English.



The reality is not the obfuscation of the English language, but the widely divergent underlying biases that create said obfuscation between two English-speaking persons.  The specific underlying bias is that your particular faith is somehow true when everybody else's is somehow inferior or just plain wrong.  This is not your fault.  It is a primary tenet of your own religion, but not one that is universal to all adherents of that religion AFAIK.


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

The question (still without a reply ...) is: HOW are they "disparate concepts of reality"?



As I will take your query as sincere and not merely an opening for another meaningless polemic I will put it plainly:


Judaism created a narrative to teach and instruct Jews how to live in this world.  It is very clear to every Jew who is educated in that tradition.


Christianity, OTOH, stole the Jewish narrative and twisted it in such a way that its meaning is unrecognizable to any Jew.  The focus upon who and what comprises a supreme deity is identical to Idolatry as defined in the Jewish narrative.  There is no shared tradition, no shared language, no shared culture, and certainly no shared peoplehood.


In Judaism the world stands innocent as created and any and all problems with the world are solely due to the choices of mankind.   In Chrisitanity the world is created evil due to the actions of a singe human being and likewise by the actions of a single human being it is somehow redeemed.  Meanwhile there is no demonstrable evidence for any of it. 


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

funny that you become so dependent, all of a sudden, on a Christian, nay Catholic source as the Catholic Encyclopedia, for the antiquity of the Apostles' Creed ...



Unlike you, I attribute subjective truth and honesty to the traditions of a people with regard to their own holy texts.


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

It is entirely evident that, as you cannot find anything "pagan" about it, you take a detour on the question of its antiquity



As I mentioned previously, Paganism is the foundation of ALL contemporary religions and the desire of your own faith to demonize it is no different than the same desire of your faith to demonize Judaism.   IOW, there is nothing inherently evil about Paganism, and Christianity, as created by Constantine - of which your own faith is a direct descendent - is solidly and demonstrably based upon MANY Pagan rites and beliefs.  Therefore it is a shame when Christians point to Paganism as somehow evil when they, themselves, partake of the exact same rites and beliefs.


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

I have repeatedly affirmed here that the original Nicene Creed (325 CE), and, even more so, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 CE) is certainly polluted with heathen elements, and in particular with the "trinitarian" doctrine, concocted and perfected by the Cappadocian scoundrels.



Augustine of Hippo a Cappadocian?   I'll just attribute that bit of historical ignorance to your religious prejudice.  And as far as Cappadocians being "scoundrels" - that is a sad personal commentary on the Christian liberal intellectuals of that age.


I, as an outsider to your faith, do not consider the Creed to be "polluted" but an accurate representation of the permitted (upon pain of death) doctrine of the Catholic church during and after the time of Constantine's creation of it.  I do not find evil in it except for the murder of Christians (and non-Christians) during the time of Constantine and afterwards who disagreed with that particular formulation.


Jul 21, 2011 -- 11:33AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

I find it rather amusing that, to expose the paganism of the Nicene (Constantinopolitan) Creed, you resort to a document (Pagan Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning, by Edward Carpenter) hosted by a website (Alternative Religions Educational Network - AREN) that proudly announces: Wiccans will be allowed to place pentacles on graves - WE WON!" ...



Well, they DID.   Wiccans successfully demonstrated that the rites and beliefs of Christianity are directly derived from Pagan sources, a fact not surprising since Constantine himself was a practicing Pagan.  And by demonstrating their own inherent legitimacy as a world "religion" they have earned the right to decorate the graves of their fallen warriors with the symbol of their faith.  The fact they they had to fight for this right is an indictment of the prejudice and mindless hatred of non-Pagan religions IMHO.


Again, I do not share the desire to distance myself from Paganism as if I were somehow superior to a Pagan as you appear to be doing in line with the tenets of your religion. 

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1 year ago  ::  Jun 19, 2013 - 7:34AM #23
river8101
Posts: 5,540

Bun's:


Thank you for your intelligent answer to the Christian "know it all"  who doesn't know much at all beyond his own beliefs and prejudices.  A poster who glides along these forums praising and defending a religion with a history filled with terrible brutality towards millions who for centuries didn't practice the beliefs of his religion, and putting down most mockingly those who disagreed with his opinions.


“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 19, 2013 - 3:23PM #24
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,759

Bun's that was incredible, Thank you.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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1 year ago  ::  Jul 13, 2013 - 9:39AM #25
miknik5
Posts: 7,684

Sounds like quite a lot of shephards.

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1 year ago  ::  Jul 13, 2013 - 9:40AM #26
miknik5
Posts: 7,684

Jun 19, 2013 -- 7:34AM, river8101 wrote:


Bun's:


Thank you for your intelligent answer to the Christian "know it all"  who doesn't know much at all beyond his own beliefs and prejudices.  A poster who glides along these forums praising and defending a religion with a history filled with terrible brutality towards millions who for centuries didn't practice the beliefs of his religion, and putting down most mockingly those who disagreed with his opinions.






One brutality puts all in the same category.  In need of GOD'S GRACE and MERCY

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1 year ago  ::  Jul 13, 2013 - 10:03AM #27
miknik5
Posts: 7,684

May 31, 2013 -- 4:26PM, Ben Masada wrote:


Jul 20, 2011 -- 2:36PM, Ben Masada wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 7:06AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Too bad because what you have commented ad your nauseam has had no effect on me because your comment is completely destituted of reasonable understanding. I am aware that there are several meanings to the word "Servant" in Isaiah, but I am referring to the Christian consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. That's the servant I am using to mean the role of Israel. And BTW, all the passages you quote above from Isaiah refer to Israel as the Servant of the Lord.



Only preconceived notions lead one to charge another's comments completely destituted of reasonable understanding. That's for lack of a better simile a sheep confession to walk by faith instead of my sight according to Paul's command that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight. (2 Cor.5:7) To walk by sight is to know how one walks and where to. To walk by faith is to walk in the dark. But why would Paul require such a condition from his followers? Because he wanted them dependent on himself and not with a mind of their own.


The collective Messiah instead of an individual one is to be understood from the logical point of view. An individual Messiah is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer.31:35-37) Last but not least, we have Habakkuk saying, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." (Hab.3:13)  Every time in Scripture the "Anointed One" is mentioned in terms of the People, that's the Messiah according to Isaiah 53.




Not really, Ben....Paul didn't want anyone to walk in the dark, but the things which came up against the newly converted such as persecution and suffering made it hard for those to keep their eyes on the LORD and to keep going forward...by FAITH...and not by sight.


We can't see all things, we can't know all things, and this is where FAITH comes in...GOD knows all things, and GOD is SOVEREIGN in all things and if our faith and hope and trust are in HIM that HE is CONSTANT, and that HE who began a good work in us will bring it to completion than we must believe that GOD, who is GOOD and the FATHER of LIGHT, has a good and lovely plan for those who LOVE HIM and are called according to HIS PURPOSE and  we press on, fighting the good fight of faith...even when things look everything BUT lovely.

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12 months ago  ::  Aug 07, 2013 - 3:53PM #28
Shibolet
Posts: 2,061

Jul 13, 2013 -- 10:03AM, miknik5 wrote:


May 31, 2013 -- 4:26PM, Ben Masada wrote:


Jul 20, 2011 -- 2:36PM, Ben Masada wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 7:06AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Too bad because what you have commented ad your nauseam has had no effect on me because your comment is completely destituted of reasonable understanding. I am aware that there are several meanings to the word "Servant" in Isaiah, but I am referring to the Christian consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. That's the servant I am using to mean the role of Israel. And BTW, all the passages you quote above from Isaiah refer to Israel as the Servant of the Lord.



Only preconceived notions lead one to charge another's comments completely destituted of reasonable understanding. That's for lack of a better simile a sheep confession to walk by faith instead of my sight according to Paul's command that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight. (2 Cor.5:7) To walk by sight is to know how one walks and where to. To walk by faith is to walk in the dark. But why would Paul require such a condition from his followers? Because he wanted them dependent on himself and not with a mind of their own.


The collective Messiah instead of an individual one is to be understood from the logical point of view. An individual Messiah is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer.31:35-37) Last but not least, we have Habakkuk saying, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." (Hab.3:13)  Every time in Scripture the "Anointed One" is mentioned in terms of the People, that's the Messiah according to Isaiah 53.




Not really, Ben....Paul didn't want anyone to walk in the dark, but the things which came up against the newly converted such as persecution and suffering made it hard for those to keep their eyes on the LORD and to keep going forward...by FAITH...and not by sight.


We can't see all things, we can't know all things, and this is where FAITH comes in...GOD knows all things, and GOD is SOVEREIGN in all things and if our faith and hope and trust are in HIM that HE is CONSTANT, and that HE who began a good work in us will bring it to completion than we must believe that GOD, who is GOOD and the FATHER of LIGHT, has a good and lovely plan for those who LOVE HIM and are called according to HIS PURPOSE and  we press on, fighting the good fight of faith...even when things look everything BUT lovely.




Do you remember the faithfuls of Jim Jones? Near 1000 of them had decided to live the Pauline doctrine recorded in II Cor.5:7 to walk by faith and not by sight and ended up in a mass forced suicidal disaster. Hosea was right when he said that people perish for lack of knowledge. (Hos.4:6)

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