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Switch to Forum Live View Jews and Christians diverge, first of all, on the Messiah: can they converge again on the Messiah?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 12:21PM #1
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 16,876
Very schematically, this is what happened to the notion of Messiah, during and after the 2nd half of the 1st century CE:

The few (Jewish) followers of Jesus of Nazareth (Yeshua of Nasaret) proclaimed that Jesus was the Messiah => then their Christian heirs overdid it, and, by the end of the 4th century they ended up with "god-the-son", the "second person of the trinity" => now fewer and fewer Christians believe that Jesus was God, or son of God, or, literally the awaited Messiah.

The overwhelming majority of the Jews refused to recognize Jesus of Nazareth (Yeshua of Nasaret) as the Messiah  => then after the destruction of the temple, for centuries and nearly two millennia they held on to the expectation of the Messiah (Moschiach) as a future event => now fewer and fewer Jews believe in the literal coming of the Messiah as some future event relative to a real individual human being.

Can you see them converge again precisely where they parted their ways: on the Messiah?

MdS
Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 1:44PM #2
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 12,001

Mario


very funny.


Your analysis of the rise of Christianity is a bit weak, but I understand your desire to compress a complex and multifaceted event into a single paragraph. Unfortunately, your understanding of Judaism is, for all intents and purposes  more or less non-existent. There is a difference between believing in the coming of a messiah/messianic age and that such a thing, despite all appearance to the contrary has occurred  I and all other Jews await the coming of the messiah/messianic age but we are not holding our collective breaths.


The short answer to your question is no.


Jesus was not the messiah. Nothing changes that basic fact, ever.


If it were ever an offshoot of Judaism, Christianity left and cannot return.


That doesn't mean we can't get along. It does mean that the two religious structures cannot meld into one.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 1:54PM #3
Rgurley4
Posts: 3,819

Hey...that's an easy one:


A> The FIRST Coming of Messiah for Jews of Faith


EQUALS


B>The SECOND Coming for Jesus the Christ-followers of Faith


================================================


A>OLD Testament of the Bible and extra-biblical writings are replete with Messianic prophecies.


B>NEW Testament of the Bible is full of "matches" with Messianic character + Points to a RETURN!


================================================


I don't know enough to argue about A . I can hold my own about B.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 2:00PM #4
Rgurley4
Posts: 3,819

Hmmm...


C >.The prohecies of the "end times" of New Testament necessarily INCLUDE the Hebrew Nations...their 70th week? The fulfillment of ALL remaining prophecy?


D>. All TRUE YHWH-followers will dwell together in time eternal.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 4:34PM #5
LeahOne
Posts: 14,488

Mario, I don't think you understand Judaism well enough to realize the flaws in your hypothesis....  What Christians attach to MbD and what Jews expect are very different.


And actually, the 'difference' starts with Genesis......

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 4:43PM #6
LeahOne
Posts: 14,488

RGurley, I understand your view is a commonly-held Christian perspective.  Unfortunately, it has no understanding of Judaism nor of the substantial difference between what you as a Christian think are 'Jewish Scritpures' and what we Jews regard as 'Torah' in a broader sense than the Pentateuch.


Your view is very tidy - and also very very wrong.  If you're interested in understanding why I say that, I'll point you to explanations and we can then perhaps discuss on some factual basis.


I certainly don't hold you at fault for lacking the relevant information:  I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to have studied my religion as itself when they aren't trying to live it themselves.


Please try to forgive me for seeming any less than welcoming.  I'm not playing games to ask you if you're interested - I've gone through the same explanation numerous times only to be rebuffed by Christians with 'that doesn't matter'. 


I don't see any need to 'synthesize' a union of two different faiths.  Perhaps we should discuss that aspect first.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 7:12PM #7
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,235

BS"D


I believe that there will be NO peace between Judaism and Christianity based upon a notion of a messiah.  I believe there will be peace between ALL nations (peoples/tribes/political and religious entities) when all peoples CHOOSE to respect each other and the rest of Creation (the knowable universe.)  This concept of respect and peace is a universal among all peoples except for those whose reason for existence is domination, conquest and hatred of all things different.  Those peoples who choose the path of death and destruction have no share in the world to come that is the common future for all peoples who choose respect.


Christianity has this massive over-riding notion of "love" at its core.  But that is meaningless and a mockery without respect.   With respect it is something that is a powerful force for good IMHO.  Without respect it results in hate-crimes and genocide.


Judaism is merely one of the last of the ancient "religions."  As such it shares much in common with the religions of many peoples prior to the forceful entry of Christianity and Islam - both through the agency of violence - on the "conquered" portions of the Earth.  There is no peace there and no sense in looking for it.  Christianity and Islam must practice respect for other peoples and their differences in beliefs and lifestyles to even be in the same ballpark with the rest of the world IMHO.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2011 - 8:16PM #8
wohali
Posts: 10,078

"D>. All TRUE YHWH-followers will dwell together in time eternal."


Fine. Could you guys go do it someplace else?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2011 - 2:08AM #9
LeahOne
Posts: 14,488

Wohali - I don't need to check his profile to know he's a Christian.  We Jews aren't overly hyped up about who's a 'true' follower of YHVH or not.


He's our GOD:  we hope He's smart enough to figure out who His true followers are without our help! 


It's just one more of those things than makes me shrug and go 'goyische kopf' ('a Gentile state of mind', one could say):  we Jews just don't think of things that way.


  Not to suggest there's something 'wrong' with it for being different.  Do we hate strawberry ice cream for being different from peach ice cream?  I DON'T THINK SO!!!

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2011 - 2:09AM #10
LeahOne
Posts: 14,488

And another excellent analytical post by Buns :  ))  

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